MRC: Quarter of men in South Africa admit rape

Damn, South African 'men' are ****ed up beyond all repair.

Real men DON'T rape! Be careful out there ladies (and men!), it could happen to any of us at any time, and according to this there is a 1 in 4 chance your attacker may be HIV positive. Try not to be afraid, name and shame and make sure you get ARV treatment immediately should the worst happen.

Firstly: This is definitely a strange study. The Number of people involved in the survey and the Geographical locations of the survey do not represent South Africa enough for the heading to simply read "Quarter of men in South Africa admit rape"
Also to say "I think it is down to ideas about masculinity based on gender hierarchy and the sexual entitlement of men. It's rooted in an African ideal of manhood." is pure and simply a fallacy. Surely being a Professor and all, Professor Rachel Jewkes should know that rearranging her preduces or opinions doesn't always qualify as "Thinking". She also says "...and its origins too deeply embedded in ideas about South African manhood." As a South African Male I am rather shocked, disgusted and insulted by this particular notion. It is baseless! There is a lot of rapping of Toddlers and very young kids lately; Do we then say the motivating factor for these imbiciles has to do with South African males percepetion of Manhood? I mean for one have never been under any form of peer pressure to prove my manhood by sleeping with an unwilling female or for that matter known someone or a friend who was under that kind of pressure. Rapists are simply sick people who deserve to kept away (for life if I might add), Not people who were raised in a society that makes rape look right like the Professor suggests.
Secondly: Surely some one has to defend the Justice System at some point (I am not saying it is right the way it is). Rape can be that complex a crime, I know many a guy who has been a victim of a vindictive female. The system is there to protect the innocent (yes including the rape victims) but do we then say: "As long as it is a rape case, the victim is therefore always right." Note that I am not defending the system for its shortcomings (delays,loss of evidence etc) I just think a conviction rate is not a measure of how effective the system is?????

The survey should have asked:
Do you feel guilty about the rape/s you have committed?
If so, do you think you should have been arrested for it?

Those two questions would reveal a great deal about the psychology of these men. If there is no feeling of guilt, we are dealing with two kinds of pathology: the cultural assumption of male entitlement and the absence of a social conscience with regard to criminal behaviour.

To narrow the field of possible motives or behavioural 'triggers' it would also be useful to know:
If the majority of those who admitted to rape thought they could 'get away with it', would they try it again? A. Yes B. No C. Not sure

If so, why? A. Not afraid of arrest. B. Not afraid of conviction if arrested. C. Why not?

Psychopathology is a highly complex problem but when there is tacit acceptance of criminal behaviour in general in a culture, the problem is even more complex. Until we have better answers, we should be educating girls and young women--in martial arts.

Well done to all those who contributed to the finding of this report. Now that the public is aware of the real rape statistics in this country, we are able to put more pressure on organs of state responsible for the protection of women in our society.

@Tinashe Nkomo:

I think you have a valid point about extrapolating these survey results to say that 25% of all men in the country have raped. The fact is though that something like 500 000 women are raped every year (correct my figures please if I'm wrong), never mind the children which is just beyond disgusting, so all in all the figure must be close to that anyway?

It is dangerous to lay it all on the "African ideal of manhood" which does play a part I think, but there is also an underlying criminal tendency in South Africa to commit violence for the sake of violence and women and children are easy targets.

Well said Delia, on every point!

Tinashe is right that the numbers should be interpreted carefully: I see that the "Burger" website states the survey was carried out in rural communities in the two provinces and that all respondents were between 15 and 26 years old. If that is correct, one cannot generalise to SA men in general without further research being done. However, (even though I cannot claim to be a statistician), the numbers seem large enough to say something valid about young rural men in those provinces - and that is horrifying enough. There I differ from Tinashe, because when a problem is as widespread as this, there is something sick in society as well as in the individual. So one should at least investigate what that society teaches its members about the relationship between men and women that may contribute to rape.
I'm interested to see if this study will be followed up by more studies in other demographic areas, so that one can see if the results are similar.

Tinashe is right that the numbers should be interpreted carefully: I see that the "Burger" website states the survey was carried out in rural communities in the two provinces and that all respondents were between 15 and 26 years old. If that is correct, one cannot generalise to SA men in general without further research being done. However, (even though I cannot claim to be a statistician), the numbers seem large enough to say something valid about young rural men in those provinces - and that is horrifying enough. There I differ from Tinashe, because when a problem is as widespread as this, there is something sick in society as well as in the individual. So one should at least investigate what that society teaches its members about the relationship between men and women that may contribute to rape.
I'm interested to see if this study will be followed up by more studies in other demographic areas, so that one can see if the results are similar.

Much as I detest raping for any reason I am not impressed by this survey. It leaves a lot of question marks particularly when the professor says two peripheral and almost adjacent provinces were sufficient for her to make an overall conclusion about SA men. She is suggesting that "SA men are the same anyway, you've spoken to one you've spoken to all". Just do a representative survey or don't do a survey at all but don't come with such flimsy reports.

"We hear men saying, if Zuma can have many wives I can have many girlfriends." Why Zuma? Prominent traditional kings, Zwelithini and Mswati, for a long time, they've been with many wives but it has never been an issue for SA men (young and old), why now is it such a big issue with Zuma?
Recently Helen Zille said young men say they have unprotected sex because Zuma did the same. Because of this HIV infection will continue to rise. What's all this? Where do these people get their information from? These fabricated stories are becoming a nuisance. Last week HSRC issued a press report indicating that there is a appreciable decline in HIV infection rate. This is a study of more than a year, I suppose, which makes it more reliable because it covered the whole country across race and social status. Please, give JZ his space and respect that he deserves as a proud traditional SA man.

this study produces disturbing results.

I wonder what the mix of urban/rural respondants where? It would be interesting to see whether exposure to the modern world has reduced the need for such 'masculinity' in urban respondants, and conversely in rural communities.

OMG. This looks astonishing but if true, have mercy on us all

The headline is sensationalist BUT no matter how you dissect this story and the research methodology, it remains absolutely shocking. Just read the story on BBC website, and again realised how immune we have become to rape statistics and stories. It's a massive and very real problem.

Delia Riordan: I agree. Self-defense. And castration for rapists (Id say death penalty, but that aint ever going to happen).

To settle the matter once and for all and because it makews such serious statements about blackmen in South Africa, Prof rachel must do the honourable thing and post her research with all working papers on the internet so that we can all satisfy ourselves about her conclusions!

@ Mandla; I'm not sure that the study is specifically of black men, although granted it does appear to have been conducted in 'rural communities'. I agree that we need to see all parameters about the study, so we can make proper determinations. The headline is misleading on this article.

I like Delia's survey detailed above. That would provide us with not only stats, but some idea's about how to tackle the issue.

I resent and detest rape but nothing is as obnoxious as a "loaded question" research hypothesis. In a news interview the MRC admitted that the word "RAPE" was never used in the interviews conducted with the respondents in the research.

What is intellectually dishonest is the huge quantum leap that Prof Rachel's conclusions have made by drawing clear racial conclusions about this mini-regional and limited study; in which respondents were "tricked" to believe they were answering everything about their sexuality except RAPE.

We should remind Prof Rachel that scholarship is about truth, honesty and integrity and is not a cultural weapon to demean and debase the humanity of others.

Mandla, perhaps the word rape was excluded from the study because many people are under the impression that forcing themselves on a women is not rape, forcing sex on a lesbian to cure there "urges" is no considered rape, forcing sex upon a women dressed in a short skirt is not rape because she is dressed like she expects sex. Also many people in our society are still under the impression that your wife is not allowed to refuse a husband sex. Many police officers will not arrest men accused of raping wives because they believe this is allowed. So ommiting the word Rape, and asking questions about scenarios that are rape will give you far more acurate results than asking. "Do you often rape people?" A question that very few people would ever answer truthfully.

"Jewkes and her colleagues interviewed a representative sample of 1 738 men in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal." Does the professor and her colleagues say that this sample is representative of the whole population of men in SA? Wouldn't taking a sample from each province been enough. Rape is rape and we must condemn and strive to eradicate it, but sensationalist surveys based on outdated stereotypes have no place in our modern world.

i wonder if any of the armchair referees here ever stopped to think that the makers of the studies, using statistical sampling, were being, erm, "polite" when they said a quarter of men. what if their statistical samples indicated an even higher number, but they rounded it down as to not offend the delicate sensibilities of the masses?

from the time that i've spent in rural areas of this country, when i saw that it said "quarter" of men, i was like, "wow, i think it should have said at least a third". if it didn't that would mean that it's the same group of people who are raping over and over and over again -- which is also likely, considering that prosecution of rape in this country borders on the non-existent.

Having worked around the world especially in third world countries with one stint in Africa, you can see the deep seated mal-treatment of women. I've been told stories of multiple rapes, the raping of women while the rapers have an open line to the police to listen in and the belief that sex with virgins as young as todlers will cure men of HIV or AIDS. Analysts will tell you rape is used as a tool for men to control and humiliate women, especially when the woman is more intelligent than the man. Its been going on for centuries. Its not only confined to Africa or the Carribean. Look at the middle east where women have even less rights or dignities. This mentality permeates itself in the US as well.

While I strongly detest any form of violence against women and I accept that this is a big problem in Sout Africa, I must ask whether a "sample of 1 738 men in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal" is really representative of "men in South Africa" as the headline states? Isn't it a bit irresponsible of the MRC to make such statements based on such a small, focused sample?

I wonder if this behavior was controlled for in the "controlled" trials supposedly linking circumcision status to HIV risk.

Since most of the US men who have died of AIDS were circumcised at birth, there are definitely spurious factors at play in the non-credible African HIV/circ findings.

Firstly, in the context of polygamy, virginity testing, women being violently abused for wearing trousers or short skirts, dry sex, jackrolling, female genital mutilation, and voting against the UN declaring rape an act of war, I am going to be so bold as to say that Africa has some serious problems when it comes to the issue of women's rights, and men's sense of entitlement. This does not mean that Africa is the only place where this is true, but many of these sexist practices are socially sactioned. If you do not oppose the practices I've listed, in my opinion you do hold that problematic ideal of masculinity Prof Jewkes refers to.

Secondly, my studies tell me that rape (by and large) is not a problem of "sick people". It is a problem of a society with skewed beliefs about women and sexuality. Be honest, how many of the men (even women) on here truly believe that an incident was rape if the woman did not physically resist and scream? Even if there was a weapon involved. How many people would say that a drunk woman in a bar was "asking for it"? All cultures have been subjected to pathological ideas about women's rights and about rape for centuries. As Gareth said, marital rape, "corrective" rape, date rape etc are not seen as rape. I agree with Delia that a more in-depth study of the motivating behaviour and the thinking behind rape would be beneficial, but such studies have been conducted on convicted rapists and the results are not particularly surprising. Entitlement and sexual myths play a huge role.

Thirdly, do remember that the study (if not the newspaper article) is peer-reviewed and the raw data, workings etc must be published and *will* be ripped to shreds if not rigourous. I am not sure about the provinces and the age group apparently used, but the sample size seems reasonable. The stats don't literally imply that if I'm on a bus with 4 men that one of them *is* a rapist.

Has any of the commenters actually read the report? And why do some of the men here seem so precious about this? Kind of like that ad with Charlize Theron. Can anyone deny the seriousness of the problem?

Oh and finally this is not a race issue. It's a gender rights issue.

One problem is that StatsSA already has done a survey into underreporting of rape, and they found that of the level of underreporting is actually relatively low - only 43.8% of subjects stated that they had been raped and did not go to the police. They also define rape in a much more narrow way, in accordance to both South African law and the general public's understanding of the term (i.e. unconsenting penetration with the use or implied threat of violence). Rachel Jewkes has not so far published how rape was defined in her 'study' (which was not about rape but about HIV - a red flag). Considering that the number of reported rapes in South Africa is consistently around 50,000 per year, that means the total rapes would be around 100,000 per year. The sensationalistic (and frankly racist) headlines and interpretation should be backed up with not only how the questions were worded, but also how rape was defined in her study.

Source: Quantitative research findings on
RAPE in South Africa (Statistics South Africa)
http://www.statssa.gov.za/Publications/Rape/Rape.pdf

Table 4: The rate of reporting rape to the police and reasons for not reporting
(all figures are weighted)

Reporting to the police

Yes 56,2%
No 43,8%

Cat Murray wrote: " Be careful out there ladies (and men!), it could happen to any of us at any time, and according to this there is a 1 in 4 chance your attacker may be HIV positive. " In other words - be afraid. The terrorists might get you. Now what was this system that was based on people being perpetually afraid and suspicious of their neighbors called again?

I agree that the culture of sexual violation is SA is shocking and constitutes a crisis. BUT ... it's irresponsible to generalise from a sample in rural EC and KZN to SA as a whole. This story should have clarified the issue in the first paragraph.

The number of rapes per year is about 100,000 (about 50,000 are reported according to the police and about half of all are reported, according to StatsSA, who I think have the most reliable surveys). The problem is not just that you cannot extrapolate from EC and KZN to SA, but that nowher does the MRC list what questions were asked, whether they were leading, or how it defined 'rape'. They certainly act and sound like they wanted to find these figures, and are not as detached from the results s they should be - to say the least. And their willingness to explain their exceptional findings from 'an African ideal of manhood' is repugnant. So the waiting is for more details, which is even more irresponsible.

Here, read the executive summary of the study:

http://www.mrc.ac.za/gender/men_exec_smry.pdf

The sample was drawn by Stats SA, the study covered rural, urban and city environments and the age group covered was 18-49.

The problems of sexual violence against women-- and men's attitudes toward women in general--in South Africa are very deeply engrained. These issues are so entrenched in this culture that even some of the country's most prominent supposed gender activists have no regard for women in their personal lives and are guilty of the very behaviors that they hypocritically preach against--multiple partners, coercive sex and disrespect for women. How can this country hope for this situation to change if such clowns are supposedly leading a "gender transformation"? It is preposterous to suggest that Jacob Zuma and his many wives have any connection to what is happening in relation to rape...at least he takes care of his women and they are the relationship out of free will.

Here is what has happened - finally. These are the 7 questions that lead to the bold statement that 25% of South African men are 'rapists'. Although the report talks of 'attacks' and 'attacking more than one victim', which would lead anyone to presume that we are talking about stranger rapes with violence, most of the questions in the questionnaire actually deal with acquaintance rape and intoxication. This means that the reporting on this issue was completely misleading. It could very well be that women should not be looking over their shoulder when walking down the street, but do a background check on their boyfriend or girlfriend, or refrain from getting blind drunk at parties to defend themselves. Also, if this 'culture of entitlement' is so ingrained, has anyone considered that the men in question could have been bragging? Think about it this way - the numbers do not add up. If a quarter of South African men are rapists (6 million), but there were only 36,000 reported rapes in 2008, why are women not going to the police - unless of course the 6 million number is wrong. Also, this questionnaire was only made available *after* the SVRI Forum ended on July 9th (ginning up notoriety to help out with attendance, perhaps?) Here are the questions that this story is built around:

http://www.mrc.ac.za/gender/interfac...e&hivsarpt.pdf

1) How many times have you slept with a woman or girl when she was too drunk to say whether she wanted it or not?

2) How many times have you and other men had sex with a woman at the same time when she was too drunk to stop you?

3) Did you ever force a girlfriend or your wife into having sex with you?

4) Was ever there a time when you forced an ex-girlfriend or ex-wife into having sex?

5) Did you ever force a woman who was NOT your wife or girlfriend at the time to have sex with you?

6) How many times have you slept with a woman or girl when she didn’t consent to sex or after you forced her?

7) How many times have you and other men had sex with a woman at the same time when she didn’t consent to sex or you forced her?

First, as someone who is carrying out research on dominant understandings of rape in South Africa these comments were very interesting to read.

Rachel Jewkes is a highly respected researcher of rape in South Africa not just for her intellectual capacity but also for her research integrity. Before attacking Jewkes, keep in mind that a journalist wrote this article. For all the facts see Jewkes's work.

Further, it is common knowledge among rape researchers that rape is informed by gender hierarchy. This has prompted researchers such as Dr Helen Moffett (African Gender Institute UCT) to argue that there is a gender civil war in South Africa.

To clarify, rape is NOT a race or class issue it rather a GENDER issue. Jewkes has not argued that black men rape, rather that rape is carried out (the vast majority of time) by men and in South Africa statistics indicate that 134 women per 100 000 of our population are raped (Victims of Crime Survey 1998). Only 68 of these crimes were reported to the police.

Research has found that rape survivors tend not to report their rapes to the polics (in SA) because of various reasons such as: the unlikelihood that they will be believed, the fact that most police officers are men and these rape survivors do not feel comfortable talking to them, that they will be stigmatised as deserving of the rape, that they will be interrogated in a derogatory manner, and that the likelihood of the perpertator being convicted is very low (statistics indicate that out of 22121 reported rape cases only 19.8% resulted in conviction in 1998). Can one really argue that 80% of women who reported being raped did so for the fun of it?

It is a gender issue, that is not to say that all men are rapists, however one must ask as a society what are we doing to change rape as a social ill?

We live in a country in which violence is a norm. Sexual violence is part of that norm - have we become blaze to violence as part of our lives?

Why do men rape? Many studies including mine have shown that it comes down to the exertion of control and power over women (Moffett (2006); Posel (2005); Jewkes (2005); Jewkes & Abrahams (2002); Chesler (1997); Kahn & Mathie (1994)...the list goes on.

Instead of those men who have not raped getting angry with researcher's findings around the aetiology of rape, one might start to think about whether these findings can be put to use for social change.

Something to think about.