ANC rejects call to nationalise mines

And just today Mr. Malema announced the founding of a 'school' for members of the ANCYL the purpose of which is to PREVENT the ANCYL from becoming another ZANU-PF. And yet nationalising the mines is exactly what ZANU demanded. And the result was...Right.

It is hard to see how the state starting a mining company is going to help. To whom are they going to sell what they mine?

The unions in South Africa should be glad that this country has had much less exposure to the financial crisis than many other places. I think they also forget that it is not just their members that have been losing jobs - many white collar workers are also victims of the crisis.

comrade brother malema, you r my aero, sorry, i meant to write "hero". let us nationalise da mines now. today. no delay. brother patrice won't be happy about this but he is an mbeki-ite and i have always suspected he is white underneath those suits. if we need some cheap miners to work in nationalised mines, let us round up all those mbeki-ites and force them to work for da good of the holy party (my party, my anc). viva malema! viva zumanomics! viva!

What is young Julius thinking? The state can't even run an education department, police force, health service etc etc.

Before we leap in joy at the potential to have a state owned mine, you need not look further than SABC, SAA, TRANSNET, DENEL, ESKOM and etc.

The purpose of these institutions was to create jobs as well as generate revenue for the government. They have created the jobs to some degree.

In real terms have they delivered revenues for the government or has it been the other way round? If not, why will the mine be any different?

Before Mal ema can demand such things, he should go to a few communist run countries and see what happens their! For one, he would not be allowed to blabber such nonsence he is used to blabber!

If they gonna ask for a financial assistance from the government, they may just as well be nationalised.

Capitalism has failed, even though people (read denialists) don't want to accept that...I believe this is the right time for our goverment to move ultra-left, the Socialist way. At least with this system, the wealth of poor would grow, exponentially.

And the plot continues to thicken! Behind the facade of unity lies a deeply divided alliance driven by individual loyalties, personal interests and ideological divide; but one thing is certain; Mantashe is fighting for his life in the alliance. The knives are out and it is only a matter of time before they get the target.

Anyway, here’s problem; the ANC will have us believe that it is guided by the Polokwane resolutions on all major policy issues and that its disciplined cadres will be guided by these in their pronouncements. Either the cadres are ill-disciplined or they do not appreciate immense challenges facing the ANC and the country. Why else will someone divert the attention of the “glorious movement” from pressing issues with such reckless and thoughtless talk? Besides isn’t Malema making policy on the go, just like Barbara Hogan? and I thought it was President Zuma who was called upon to nationalize mines, so why is Mantashe the respondent?

Siphiwo, A degree of socialism only works where you have a uniform population, a stable middle class, a high employment rate and therefore a high tax base.It has failed miserably in developing and poor countries, and brought nothing but failure and further abject poverty. Who is being denialist here?


( e.g. Sweden)uniofrom oppuaitondoesnlt wrok

Socialism

Cuba, Venezuela & China are perfect examples.

Capitalism

US is a perfect example of a failed state (system).

@ Siphiwo Siphiwo, service delivery now.

You don't know much, do you? China is very much capitalist - it's just not a democracy and has no respect for human (or animal) rights.

Siphiwo
Cuba, Venezuela, China. Your good examples point to you never having been there, and a lack of real understanding of their impacts on their poor. While the US might have "failed", it has not failed.

Get real. The systems you want to implement have failed, even the developed countries tried the nationalistaion route. It failed totally.

Malema is suffering from the same communist indoctrination, which is affecting COSATU leadership. The honest truth is that each and every institution the current government has taken charge of has become a basket case (ESKOM, SABC, SAA,…) because of nepotism. Nationalism just like BEE only create the few elite, and will never solve our economic problem. I do not expect Malema to understand anything about that, but my point is South African economy has been rattled by global crises, because they Malema, Mbalula, Nzdimande and Vavi have created a dependency attitude amongst South African by motivating them to demand, instead of motivating the to contribute to the development of our economy. The chickens have come home to roust and now they are looking for people to blame. It is the striking people who where encouraged by you when they were vandalising national assets, we are paying the price for the cheap popularity the four of you were seeking. So Malema’s suggestion of nationalising, and whole ideology of communism or socialism is not a solution and was never a solution and will never be a solution. We can never give Malema both the political power and the economic power, for haven sake he is not even aware of the ANC’s resolutions let alone the procedure to change the resolutions. Thank Mr Matashe for calling the boy into order and he should be the first student of the school he opened. Is it possible for you to force him to do that?

Siphiwo
I would hardly call Cuba's economy a bright shining star on the horison. To quote Wiki-

"In the 1950s, Cuba's economic development was on the top of Latin America and advanced even by European standards.The economy has deteriorated, and incomes have fallen dramatically behind European countries. Starvation was observed after the loss of Soviet subsidies. Shortages and queues are rife. Wages are 17-30 U.S. dollars per month on top of overcrowded housing (three quarters built before 1957)and some subsidized food.Paramount issues have been state salaries failing to meet personal needs under the state rationing system chronically plagued with shortages. As the variety and quantity of available rationed goods declined, Cubans increasingly turned to the black market to obtain basic food, clothing, household, and health amenities. The informal sector is characterized by what many Cubans call sociolismo. Corruption is common.Preferential treatment exists for those who are members of the Communist Party or who hold positions of power within the government.Access to transportation, work, housing, university education and better health care are a function of status within the government or the Communist Party." ...sounds nice, heh? And you want us to go that route?

Venezuela's socialism started off okay,while the oil price was high, but its economy is dependent on oil-80% of its exports- and the lower quality of their oil sells at a discount, so when the price of oil goes down, they start battling to keep on delivering. Their inflation rate is 30%, wages are falling, welfare is being cut and consumer confidence has dropped 17% from December till May. Do you want us to copy that model?

China's economic growth is legendary, but is highly dependant on both importing raw materials and selling products to the capitalist countries like the USA-in fact there is a codependency between these two economies to the extent that they have been referred to as Chimerica. There are also draconian top-down laws- like limited, or no access to information, so we wouldn't be communicating like this; certainly limited trade union activity, very poor wages (thats why they can produce goods so cheaply) etc.

One should actually compare us with other African countries, where socialism has been tried- so show me one where it worked in Africa?

The so called chaterist freedom charter was never meant to liberate the poor masses of South Africa, it was meant to maintain the capitalist system, it's crystal clear how the anc intends to hoodwinck the poor masses. Freedom Charter is not a viable tool period.

Siphiwo, your examples are perfect what? Why is the US a failure.

Apart form China aggresively pursuing its colonisation into Afica under the guise through buying power is the same as the British did way back then...are you saying the Chinese people are profiled similar to us...have you heard of sweat shops...why do think some much is imported form the China...then...human trafficking and other social ills to young children emanating out of China...so does China have a constitution?

Do you realise that the constitution is based largely on the USA and Canadian constitution...and by the way our acting NPA head conveniently uses a retired western judges comments on freeing our very onw Zuma..the man has many wives and has willing intercourse with an HIV woman...and he's the person that represents us!!!!!!!!!

@ Siphiwo Siphiwo, Can I point out the falier of Comunism? Or will you only learn from the selsctive past? You hear only what you want to hear and egnore the rest. This is pure indoctranation. May i point out the falier of our health system? education system? police force, SAA? , SABC .... Me thinks there is much to be learned before we be so arrogant as to assume we can run a corner cafe, never mind a multi billion rand idustry.

The fact remains, Cuba, Venezuella, China, Dubai etc have nationalised all major resources/ institutions...You can call that "Capitalism" but to me, this is not what Adam Smith talked about in his Wealth of Nations when he publicised the ideology of capitalism.

This is not about selfserving manipulative conglomerates: AngloPlats, Goldfields, BHP, Rio Tintos, & De Beers of this world (which you all seemed to defend), but it's about the poorest of the poor...who're on the raw end of the hot stick.

Socialism & Nationalisation are the only systems that could pave a way for everyone to prosper.

It was funny when Brown blew her mouth, and all the ANC reprimands she receives. Now Malema does the same, and no negative comments from the cadres.

Siphiwo: Yeah, out of your communist closet, finally hey.

No, its about the "selfserving manipulative" politicians and civil servants of this country, who have sought self-enrichment through corruption and outright theft, at the expense of service delivery to the poor. Do you really think that by bringing in more Socialism that this will stop? The Anglo Plats, Goldfields, BHP, Rio Tintos and De Beers have brought employment to thousands of people by creating wealth. The rich have been taxed and this money supposedly to be distributed to the poor, has been squandered, and there is a greater disparity between rich and poor now in SA than there was in 1994- after 15 years of ANC rule. Wake up, Siphiwo, and smell the rot.

Although this socialist ambition is admirable, it finds itself in the midst of a worldwide entrenched and thriving Capitalist system - which unfortunately has the power to fail any alternative consideraton. South Africa is battling to manage state owned entities as it is - do we really think we are at the stage of replacing the curent world system, when we need it so much for our development?

Worrying.

Faith

Yes, I've woken up, the whole world is in deepest sh*t. We are firmly holding to our jobs (pity some of us have already lost theirs), thanks to Capitalism, Deregulation & manipulation.

The ANC government has been affected(for the first time since it came to power)by an inferno which came from the shores of US--the Capitalist world.

And, expectadly, you seemed to ignore that reality.As much as you proclaim that Communism has failed, Capitalism is a walking ghost.

Siphiwo: Just THINK how much worse it will be, if South Africa was communist. You know what Siphiwo, capitalist didnt fail us. The ANC failed us. Last year, manual announced the BIGGEST EVER collection of taxes, now, we are R60 billion short.

I do no ignore the reality that we are all suffering from the global recession, but I ask that you search for, read and reflect on the root cause of the whole sub-prime crisis in the USA that triggered this meltdown. Find out about the legislations passed over the years, who pushed for this, why, what were their agendas.
I do not deny that there was a gross lack of proper control and regulation of the activities of certain financial institutions that has exascerbated the situation, but don't try to blame this for the further impoverishment of the poor in SA, when corruption, nepotism and theft reigned supreme before September 2008.
Jorge is right- the capitalist system has the power to fail alternative considerations, and given that very few state-run departments and corporations are without problems of corruption and theft, why take on more with such a poor track record of running them properly? Consider Zambia that nationalised their mines and then ran them into the ground.. its not so easy just to take over something and think you will automatically extract the same wealth from it for distribution to the poor.

As a matter of interest, who is the #1 trade partner of China and Venezuela? the USA. And by the way, China freed up its markets (capitalist style) and has pretty much a capitalist economic system, just a very repressive "commanding heights" political system.

Personally I think we are coming to the end of the strict capitalist/socialist classification and moving towards some other more pragmatic solutions that are suitable for a particular country's situation.

Education is a spear to fight hunger

I personally fully agree with Comrade Julius Malema the President of the ANC Youth League (The Peter Mokhaba of early 90s, the Fikile Mbalula of mid 2004s. I believe the ANC Youth League is on Track and intack... Look there are no contractions here our Goverment lead by Commander Jacob Zuma must nationalist the MINING without a fear or Favour, Cde Julius is a selfless leader that is arguing for the benefit of the workers and the poor of our Country, who are the casualties of the Apartheid Goverment (Capitalist regime)

Our freedom charter of 1955 is very clear that by Nationalisation of Mining indeed u are ambushing poverty.

As young people of the glorious revolutionary country lead by the citizen of South Africa (The Venuenzal way)we must rare behind the president of the Youth League to force goverment to implement 1955 resolutions.

Free education is the matter of MUST, remember it is also there to our 1955 resolutions, look whatsup in Cuba in terms of eduction system...

CDE Julius KEEP THE RED FLAG FLIES

A better world is Possible, Ever onwards to a victory

Ndura Gceba
Eastern Cape

Faith

I've read, heard and watched various documentaries about how capitalism, manipulation & deregulation have failed us. And I've also read about the rise of China, a communist state.

You need to view this documentary and see how we all got screwed by the system, you're all proud of:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meltdown/view/

" Consider Zambia that nationalised their mines and then ran them into the ground.. its not so easy just to take over something and think you will automatically extract the same wealth from it for distribution to the poor. "

And look at Zambia's privatised mining sector. During the greatest boom in copper prices (copper was consistently around $1,000 per tonne during nationalisation; the mines were nationalized under pressure from the IMF in 1999; copper prices boomed to $9,000 per tonne in 2006, and is now between $3,000 and $4,000 per tonne). In 2004, the mines exported $4,000 million in copper and cobalt, of which $2,400 million was pure profit. Total taxes paid to the Zambian government: $6 million. I would rather have government owned mines run into the ground, than foreign owned privatised mines that efficiently fleece the country from it's natural resources. And keep in mind - who owns the mines in China? The state. Most companies in Taiwan, one of the Asian tigers, are parastatals. This whole mantra of 'the government is the problem' is a scam designed to enrich a few industrialists and corporations. It also happens to undermine the sovereignty of the state, and democracy itself. When foreign owned mining companies can armtwist the government by threatening to leave the country, the people have no say over domestic policy. This is blatantly anti-democratic. So I say: either massively tax privately owned mines, or have the mines state owned, and redeploy miners in agriculture when prices are too low for profitablity.

Siphiwo
I too have read and watched various doccies, and have direct personal contact with the financial services industry in London, so am very aware of what happened, but I repeat that you need to research WHY the sub-prime crisis happened before you judge and blame capitalism.
Also, if you can get a copy of another pbs special made in 2009 called "The Ascent of Money"- it is very intersting. You keep referring to China as a communist state- politically yes, but economically, no, its capitalist- the Chinese are by nature hard working and keen entrepeneurs- they own and control a lot of the businesses of SE Asian countries that I have been to- Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Singapore etc.,and you can't keep them down.These characteristics of the Chinese make them economically successful.And about getting screwed by the capitalist system, well I think the Communist system has done its fair share of that too-raising the expectations and dreams of poor people, promising them stuff that they know they have no intention of delivering.
So, lets just agree to differ in our beliefs and hope that we will all be better off in the future.

You may want to see what happened to the Zambian copper mines after they were nationalised with much fanfare. After 30 years they virtually had to beg the Kafue Consortium to take the mines back; they were losing US$ 1 million per day.

I visited one of the Copper Belt plants just after they had been taken over by private companies but before everything had been put right...everything rusted, a river of toxic cobalt salt running into the Kafue River and the sulphur trioxide fog when they roasted ore made acid rain look like spring water.

The incompetent state managers milked the mines for everything they could and put nothing back, unless you count gross air and water pollution.

The rub for the Malema-ites is that the Copperbelt became one of the few places in Africa where the return of white people was welcomed

Siphiwo
One last word on Communism vs Capitalism- just 2 examples-compare East and West Germany, and North and South Korea. In both cases each country had the same language and culture, but different political systems. No prizes for guessing in which ones the poeple are better off.

Siphiwo: In China, they execute corrupt politicians.

Capitalism vs Communisim is an age old idealogical question. The fact of the matter is that there is not 1 pure capitalist, or 1 pure communist country on the planet. They all have a percentage of the other model in their make up. So the question is not really whether Capitalism or Communism is the best, but rather what mix we should employ here in SA, that will suit of situation.

My feeling is that basic human requirments (health, power, transport, education and security) should remain in in government hands, whilst everything else should be left to the more efficient free market. This way the free market would fun the things that all of us should have access to at prixces we can afford.

Now back to reality - In South Africa we have an unusual challenge; this is that huge amounts of revenue collected by SARS is siphoned off by those who are employed to provide these basic services to us. Hence, in South Africa, the problem is not the car, but rather the driver. Change the driver, and the car will start to drive normally as it is designed to do.

We have no shortage of revenue, but we have a major theft issue, which prevents the bulk of this revenue reaching those who need it the most. I've said it before - good liberation movements do not make good governments. The ANC has had it's day in the sun, and we are now at a cross roads in SA; take the left turn towards oblivion and 'Zim like' chaos, or the right turn towards prosperity and long term 'Australia like' success.

The power is in our hands; bring on the next elections!

PS: How much money did Brett Kebble donate to the ANCYL again?

Siph, if the US is failed, why do more than a billion people want to emigrate there? Go there and see the failure, it is a bit down right now, but nothing has really changed there.

The only thing China has been successful at is enriching the military, owners of much of its commerce, and at propaganda. The likes of your posts are a clear example of that susceptibility to successful propaganda and brainwashing. Venezuela is propped up by oil revenues and handouts for votes. Get real. The mention of Germany and Korea are very correct and relevant examples of communist authoritarian nationalization vs. free market. The south does not want to reunite with the (starving)north even after seeing what happened to Germany. China realizes that communism is a failed economic policy, obviously, and maintain it only to maintain its military dictatorship. What a joke, your posts, all the while you complain about free speech. Your posts prove that even fringe voices are not denied publication, so be happy.

It is sad to read everyday in papers how ANC disagree with Malema. Is it not an organization policy to manage the communication channels. The truth is ANCYL is part and parcel of ANC what they pronounce on should in some way be in line with ANC. Are we justified to say that the centre is tearing apart in ANC. WE yet to see the NEC stamping their authority in stead of continuos cover up of Julius's statements.

Come on comrades we love ANC for its descipline but now it does not seem to be that NEC has it all with Malema. Gwede and the NEC assist us here, We are building the country here.

If its not in the ANC policy Youth league must not pronounce until they added the matter into the agenda and internally discussed. We are tired of this Malema game.

" You may want to see what happened to the Zambian copper mines after they were nationalised with much fanfare. After 30 years they virtually had to beg the Kafue Consortium to take the mines back; they were losing US$ 1 million per day. "

That's not what happened. In fact, the Zambian government never wanted to privatise the mines, and were forced by the IMF. In the words of the then Finance Minister, Edith Nawakwi, "they wanted blood".

If they had held on 5 more years ($1.5bn, or less if they closed a few mines), they would have been out of the woods. The IMF 'advice' cost the Zambian taxpayer over $10 billion.

http://www.infomine.com/investment/charts.aspx?mv=1&f=f&r=10y&c=ccopper.xusd.umt#chart

I wish the people who advocate communism could visit & stay in a communist state. Its a mess, the majority of people live in below humane standards. Take Eastern Europe, its really sad- how people need to pay for their leader's decisions. There are unfortunately no success stories. I can't see how SA can change this rate. First of all - our people are not united & are not striving for a better SA. Everybody in this country is striking, even the doctors. Communism requires you to put your country first above all else. The reality is there is no Perfect political/economic system in this world. There will also never be. In order for some people to live in Sandton, you need others to live in Soweto.. In order to get mass produced goods cheaply in the Western World - you need workers in India/China and slaving away. Whether the masters or servants are white/ black is irrelevant. It will always be there. Look how well the communist leaders in a country like China live in comparison with the average factory worker there.. Every truly great/global empire in this world's history: Babylon, Medo- Persia,Greece, Rome, and various others, have always had their upper classes & the slaves (workers). Nothing is truly going to change - no matter who is in power & which mines get nationalised.

Thank you Zuma for not listerning to Malama. You know some people should do their homework.