Will South Africa reclaim its mines?

"Similarly, he assumes that all mining assets will be expropriated without compensation but that investors will nonetheless keep investing" Now that I call incompetent arrogance. He is a danger to our country, only seeking immediate cratification via his foul mouth, and yet he has a lot of blind followers!

Zuma, his sycophants, Malema and his rabble, and other members of the parasitical class have one motto and that is the five finger question:" What's in it for me?". I do not for one second believe that they are interested in the masses. They give new meaning to the Darwinian imperative. They will happily drive the economy into the ground but will ensure that they live like kings like their hero Bob Mugabe. They are horrors of human beings. My disillusionment is complete. Another sucker who came full circle from being enthusiastically part of the anti-apartheid scene to stark reality.

By appointing a pale foreign chairman, Anglo has given our government & our people a lousy middle finger.

Then why shouldnt we be talking about nationalisation?
Surely if we think that these mines would ever transform, we may just as well wait for the sun to rise from the west.

Siphiweeee, here you are on again on the race thing, have you thought maybe just maybe their is not suitable darkie to fit this position hey boetie!

As with much that Malema utters, the argument to nationalise the mines does not stand up to any rational analysis - other than it ousts "white" ownership.

If that is the only target of the ANC and this government it is easy to achieve.

Building a unified South Africa that is prosperous - as they are finding out - is difficult, and people like Malema afre poison to this objective.

errors don't make an argument

The mining companies have the worst, most nepotistic management structure in the world. And they have the worst human rights abuse record in the world [minesandcommunities.org]

"Where would one find the money? ..panic among investors?" South africa was laid a trap. but if it's leg is trapped - it does not have to put it's neck in the vice. It can chop off it's leg & live to fight another day. And you don't ask someone profiting from your demise for advice. Any investor who panics is not fit to be an investor - but in mining - they are endemic.

"human skills?" The brits & Afrikaaners repressed the skills & talents of black southern africans for a century. They suppressed them because they knew black africans were at least as smart, as skilled, as good at management as they were. In fact, people who are repressed are consistently more intelligent than their repressers. They just need opportunity. And not surprisingly those who profit from the old status quo are distracting them.

They try & sap their confidence [something inside so strong] with the jibe Africa is the world's most corrupt and inefficient. Strange, when year on year - fraud in the UK alone is 10x greater than fraud in the whole of Africa [Mischon de reya]. They twist the fact that the african mining industry (like zimbabwe) did not fail because of africans - but failed because the foreign mining multinationals with their control of the market forced them to fail - So that they could 'take the mines away'. And they push a different pill for africa - a pill no other continent would tolerate - a pill that would get you banned from japan - let someone else do the work, take the risks, reap the profits - a persuasive slow & painful form of suicide.

They say the "international economic opinion was so overwhelmingly hostile to nationalisation" - when the opposite is true. Across south america they reversed the exploitation by privatisation and are reaping at least 100% more revenue through nationalisation & better contracts. Gazprom & CNOOC have become some of the biggest companies in the world overnight - how? via nationalisation. South america national companines & Gazprom's nationalisation of Yukos actually enhanced the appetite of desperate investors who knew they were exploiting them before. The national oil companies are now more powerful & more profitable than the multinationals. South Africa must decide whether it will stay in the past or move with the future. Will it be slaves to a foreign controlled corrupt market or smart enough to minimise it's stranglehold & courageous enough to trust that if it fully used it's human potential - it could do 10x as much as the criminally inefficient afrikaaner regime.
Who dares wins.

RW Johson-What SA needs is exactly this information. You must remember the adoption of market friendly policies was agreed upon by Mandela with National Party government before he was even released from prison. This created a void; nationalisation was abruptly abandoned without clear reasons to the masses. After Mandela presidency, Thabo Mbeki took over and stifled this debate even further. Jacob Zuma is being very smart by allowing space for free debate. I would have argued for nationalisation. However having read different material on nationalizing mining, I will oppose it. That's exactly Zuma's intention. He already knows there will be no nationalisation. However he wants us to arrive at that conclusion by ourselves. We need the same approach on government service delivery. People can be illiterate but they're not stupid. If you explain a concept to them they will understand it provided you don't assume upfront that you're clever and they are not.

@Siphiwo Siphiwo
Come on, admit it. You're not a real person. You're a figment of the M&G's imagination whose purpose is to stir up commentary on these stories by making silly inflammatory statements!

Ah well, we might as well give it a try this nationalisation thing. The current system is not doing anything for the blacks thank you very much and the arrogant whites thumb their noses at Zuma and say to the world "See, even a black socialist cannot do anything more for the masses." knowing full well that for as long as he has no control over the economy, any popular president can only go through the motions of trying to deliver the milk and honey to his fellow Africans. If you think the demand for our gold and diamonds will drop worldwide simply because the profits of mining them are now going to an elite class of black fat cats instead of an elite class of white fat cats then you've got another thing coming. There's is more than enough demand from China and the Middle East and all those countries that really don't give a damn about the colour of the proprietor when doing business. These mines will continue to thrive under black ownership. The white skills can stay, if they cant stomach having a black paymaster, well, they can take their chances in recession ravaged Australia.

Africa will not be held to ransom by the scaremongering or whingeing of a select bunch of privileged people whose sole aim is to protect the status quo. Malema is speaking my kind of language, it neither makes me cringe nor hang my head in shame, infact it feels me with hopeful anticipation. I hope Zuma is listening. Maybe one day, Africans will not have to justify owning a piece of Africa.

Siphiwo Siphiwo misses an important point "Anlgo american" did not appoint its chairman. They found someone who was palatable to their shareholders i.e. the owners of the business. Their shareholders like the chap. Their shareholders who own the company are happy with him. That some racists south africans dont like his pigmentation is not relevant. It is their company and they can do as they please. Shareholders do not have to have our race driven neurosis. It is not a requirement to creating wealth. Shareholders who are mostly pensioners via their pension funds, dont seem as upset. In fact pension fund holders own most of the JSE... and come from all walks of life. Most are Black. Most know that nationalisation will lead us to be the next Zimbabwer. Most just dont want to eat cat food when they retire. As a country we are about 200 years away from getting over ourselves. As a society we coudl tolerate the "transformationistas" - but in a global downturn they are dangerous, out of line and acting not in our countries interests. Oh yes, and most of them are well of, educated and well fed... no starving man would suggest stealing the only thing that could maybe feed him. You have to be in ANCYL to do something that inane...

Let facts be presented for what they are. This white ownership of minerals has to be addressed once and for all. For History purposes, these minerals are being mined in Africa. An automatic entitlement to Africans, not Europeans. This is not new mind you, its repeating itself throughout the African Heritage, from the Pyramids, the burial tombs of African Kings was claimed to belong to Europeans. Just start from Ghana, Nigeria, Seirra Leone, Ivory Coast, Angola, DRC and now South Africa. Anglo American, says it all representing European Americans controlling their wealth through African exploitation taking from underneath the African earth to develop themselves. Take lessons from Venezuela, China, Japan, India, Russia and Zimbabwe. The subject to complete economic independence does not come cheap. South Africa will come to release this 30 years from now not yet. Anytime one hears a white person talking about prosperity, guess what its for him not for us.

Read this and then you people might understand what is called Geo-Politics and who is poverty creators for the Africans and then learn lessons to avoid such a mess, in South Africa, because there is another game being played behind the scenes. Mandela knows, Thabo Mbeki knows, but the idiots are too many who like the titles and money yet killing the Africa wallowing in the dirt.

"The mineral-rich Katanga province in the south declared independence. Its leader, Moise Tchombe, a longtime enemy of Lumumba, was known close to the Belgian industrial companies which mined the copper, gold and uranium whose wealth had flowed back to Brussels for decades. Without Katanga Congo's was an impoverished economy.The researcher and historian, Ludo de Witte, who has scrutinized documents held in the Brussels' archives for forty years, says the Belgian government was secretly protecting its interests and directing Katanga's secession from behind the scenes.

"The documents are very clear. All those officers and functionaries were following orders from the Belgian government, and following Belgian policy,"

Lumumba demanded that Belgian troops withdraw - they didn't. He expelled Belgian diplomats and called on the United Nations to defend the newly-independent state. He hinted that it might be necessary to ask the Soviet Union to assist unilaterally. That set alarm bells ringing in the West.

A mutinational UN peacekeeping force was deployed.

Brigadier Inda Jit Rikhye, knew of the conspiracy.

"It is on record in UN reports that Belgian civilian personnel made it impossible for the UN civilian experts to work properly", says Brigadier Indarjit Rikye, the Secretary-General's military representative in Congo.

Lumumba was frustrated. Finally he accepted a consignment of Soviet transport planes, military trucks and, it was suspected, guns. The American ambassador in Leopoldville began referring to the prime minister as "Lumumbavitch". "

Listen to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1JAM0KS2RQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h_8ig0KUPE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDhKK-4Exnk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0OIpk4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kpbiYBk4Y

Sharing our wealth and then we get given wages to work to take our resources out of the ground to benefit Europe and Americans, and then when things get tough they easily close and move to another area, but the whites get given pensions which will sustain them for life whilst the blacks are given bicycles and a one off payment. Call it business and democracy, I call it robbbery.

the fact that ANCYL does not understand principles of economics, and the fact that they ANCYL are within the leadership structures of the ruling party and the fact that we have endorsed these moegoes is scary.when they talk about the "people" who are they referring to. wherever socialism existed, only the government elite less that 1% of the populations benefitted. with capitalism at least 10% of the population will benefit. Show me a nation that was successful with socialism and i will give you 10 billion zim dollars.

Themba your arguements are wierd, and you have obviously never travelled to the copper belt. Anglo left there because it was too unsafe. They left complete infrastructure for those who "own" the country. It is amazing that after their departure little to nothing was done in the form of mining. So there are two aspects, one is the land, and the other is the value add in removing the substance from the land. So both parties need to benefit from the relationship and in essence they do e.g. job creation. As for Siphiwo, why is skin colour such an issue for you - are you some form of racist person who believes that whites are lower than blacks and therefore do not deserve senior management positions ?

Themba, oil thieves
The mineral wealth of Africa has been there for millenia. If Africans had all the skills and talents you talk about, why did they not exploit this wealth themselves and distribute it to all the poor people of the continent?

to Pasta Bag. It seems imperative to mention terms of reference, as really understanding what is termed indepedence, infrastructure development, skills, investments and returns. Having watched the videos of what happened in DRC, I have come to see things from a different view point, not the keyhole view which the western media always present, of handouts, Aid and honesty.

Siphiwo is very right, who support that view point. Belgium, Germany, France, UK, US and Switzerland are more interested in preserving their white heritage of diplomacy, civilisation and arrogances.

In DeBeers, Anglo American plc has a 45% shareholding, Central Holdings (the Oppenheimer family) has a 40% shareholding, and the Government of the Republic of Botswana owns 15% directly. De Beers Societe Anonyme (DBSA) is the management company of the De Beers group. I am sorry as most diamonds come from DRC and the Congolese have never enjoyed their independence as they has always been a civil war being waged to control the mines. Please watch the video links given to us by Themba.Thank you Themba for giving us information please continue doing so. But are you South African who what?

Tycoon Comrade, France, German and The UK Governments are a socialistic. Back up your argument with facts, not this tongue in cheek nonsense.

Another day, another British "analysis" nonsense. This "flight of foreign investors" threat is, quite frankly, tiring to say the least. RW Johnson must do himself a favour and research topics before writing rubbish next time. Latin America and China, for example, own and control their natural and mineral resources and they are doing just fine. In fact, real investors are actively snooping around in these regions for assets to invest in, irrespective of who owns them.

Meanwhile, the fundamental question on nationalisation is: What is wrong with the entire nation benefiting from their country's natural resources?

Most Diamonds come out of Africa.

Which African family or company has its name on Diamonds. Once diamonds come into African Hands, they are called Blood Diamonds.

France, Germany, UK and Japanese Governments are socialists. Move away from foolish talk that only western governments are capitalistic, because they are not. African governments are not socialistic at all, neither are they communistic, all these are foreign systems to Africa. Let some of us, educate you Tycoon Comrade. China is communistic, and Russia is socialistic, and yet these two are the only ones not affected by the credit crunch, what happened has nothing to do with democracy and rule of law, its about failure of capitalism.

Surely we can't exclude the idea of nationalising our mines for fear of ending like Zimbabwe, As we all know the downfall of Zimbabwe is attributed to numerous factors of malgovernance. Nationalisation has been adopted by governments of all political orientation – why aren't they all where Zimbabwe is? One of the main reasons for nationalasation is to take over the assets and operations of the particular company/industry to assist the functional process to operate more effectively, other reasons are to take over the assets to place them into public ownership and run the industry in the interest of the people as a whole instead of having the wealth flow into the pockets of the elite few who run a virtual monopoly. Nationalization is also common in times of hardship...mmm...like the current times.
We all know the dominance that the west has had and still has on our continent, DRC is still victimized for the gain of the shrewd and history has taught us that the west had devised any mean possible to exploit us from our land to the people and so on, now we experience an evolved exploitation system, do as we say or we pull the plug – reason for Zimbabwe's fall. The western stronghold over the world is slowly slipping away, with their autocratic control from their wealthiest groups over the heads of states to control our assets for their interests, they probably still restrain nationalsation of our mines because they have big stakes at play. In our present time when the capitalist system of the west has failed, we should take our own directives and contemplate weather we should focus our efforts on strengthening our relations with Asia and South America or keep assisting our 'allies' who have their own interests in mind. The time has come for us as Africans irrespective of skin colour or political preference to consider an alternative approach to better our country and make history, for I would rather try and fail than fail to try.

Nationalising the mines is like Rothschilds becoming poor.It's a BIG BIG dream. It's true that after nationalising the mines we will face a great 'planned' recession (great depression) and guess what, we will privatise them again. So who wins? Obvious, your capitalist wins. They give govt a huge loan to buy and they buy them back with less money and govt is left with unnecessary debt. In return govt increase tax and we (ordinary citizens) suffer more.

Good Big dream indeed Sir Malema. I hope you not doing it for guiness book of record.

I will love to see it happen in future after my AD.

tycoon comrade, your answer to socialist governments, France, German, UK,Japan and Russia. These are socialist governments as they call them left leaning government.

The Zimbabwe issue has nothing to do with socialism, just as it was said about Obama, and The famous saying of the aparthied government that all Black Governments are communists. China is a communist government and look at how they are doing. There is much at play when systems are defined by others, instead of listening to the policy givers themselves. The ANC is neither a socialist or communist party.

Nationalisation often does not bring the expected benefits. In the case of Codelco, where the Chilean government bought a controlling stake in Chile's copper mines, most of the benefits went to the workforce in the form of inflationary wage hikes. This was only stopped by the military government banning strikes. The bit of revenue that the government got fell way short of making up the losses caused by capital flight. This is what is euphemistically called "unintended consequences of policy". Don't expect to be better off if the mines are nationalised....and Chilean nationalisation is one of the better ones. Zambian nationalisation was a disaster.

Who is taking this Malema still serious? The guy has proven, that he has the mental capacity of a little pea. As long South Africa votes out of sympathy and tribal obligation, as long there will be NO functioning governments in this part of the world. A state presidency has to be choosen by merit and intelligence and not the candidate who is the leader of the biggest tribe.

@oilthieves
We await the most recent outcome of Comrade Hugo - the mess he is making for himself in the Orinoco oil belt. Suggest you enlighten yourself a little further on the Russian oligarchies, their ties to the Soviets before claiming nationalisation did them wonders. CNOOC likewise. The only reason they are now more powerful (but not profitable) is the recent price spike. Problem for Comrade Hugo (and Comrades Gazprom, NIOC, Aramco, Sonangol etc) when all of a sudden his budget cannot support grandiose spending plans.
Yes presently it maybe the era of the NOCs but that is only in the short term - funny how innovation has a way of getting around bureaucracy, wastage, crony capitalism, nepotism, inefficiency.

On the issue of corruption in Europe - yes of course you are right. But funny how those countries continue to work. In Africa? - well read Martin Meredith.

On a different point - I am not too sure how to refer to Messrs Zuma, Malema and Ngobese - dipsy, dopey and sleepy - or vice versa. Zuma is, as always, conspicious by his absence and never says anything of substance. It is rather like he is waiting for Mantashe to tell him to say the right thing. Well I suppose that is democracy in action - you vote for imbeciles you get an idiotic country. We need someone to keep score on the gaffs.

"For History purposes, these minerals are being mined in Africa. An automatic entitlement to Africans, not Europeans" - Themba Ndou -

The above is a logical fallacy -> minerals in the ground are worthless. Only by extracting them and making them available for other uses do they become valueable. Whether the minerals are mined in Africa or Mars, they belong to those who extract them.

Siphiwo, if you don't like the Rainbow Nation concept - leave ! Try emigrating to Zimbabwe instead...

@Peter Lauer
Well many south africans are still finding it hard to trust the white people. It's not about tribal obligations that make them choose a president, NO!. Some people are afraid that maybe "history will repeat itself". Many white private schools still reject some black kids because they don't want too many black students. So you see it's not about tribes but things like this count alot.

Wouldn't it be a good idea for the neddies calling for nationalisation to first call on government to properly run the parastatals etc that they DO have. Thus far, the record of successes would make a hell of a short book. Monumental cock-ups include SAA, SABC, Eskom, and as for government departments that are useless, don't get me started. All we would end with would be no-brainers, with no experience or skills in managing a mining company, running it into the ground while milking it dry. Wait for 'fact-finding' trips to Rome to investigate how spaghetti is mined - and we'll fly first class, of course. If I were a potential investor I would not give this country a Zim dollar.

Oil thieves - I have seen what happened to the money after Glasnost in Russia. For eg there is a gated community in Moscow called Rosinka where the rent for a 150m^2 townhouse is USD10 000 per month, and private schools that charge USD20 000 per year for a primary school kid. The money didn't go to the people. There is a class of "new russians" who did very well out of all that government activity. BEE deals in SA are highly geared and now they need huge amounts of cash. The mines are the only visible source for that cash, be it in raised taxes or nationalisation. But the remedy for capitalism is not to decapitalise the country. How it is to be fixed I don't know; employing competent and committed leaders would be a start. Even ministers who put in an old-fashioned 40 hour week at their desks would be helpful.

@Manu - You poor disillusioned fellow! You cannot blame what is happening in SA in terms of service delivery on the mines or the whites. Just look at the amount of corruption and nepotism etc that our government is guilty of. A case in point is the plundering of resources, like Smuts Ngonyama making a cool R65 million on the Telkom privatisation, just for being in the right place at the right time! Another example is the Travelgate saga. That entire matter was swept under the carpet and the perpetrators got off instead of having to account for their actions. What about the Arms Deal? I'm sure we will never see justice prevail there! I can go on and on, but we all know that the top dogs are lining their pockets! This kind of greed is not sustainable. Someone has to lose out and of course it will be the man in the street. Make our politicians accountable and you might see a different picture unfolding!