Zuma's new God squad wants liberal laws to go

NILC is a contradiction in terms. You cannot combat the fruits of relativistic humanism (abortion etc) with relativism (NILC by definition). Waste of time.

One of the many pleasant outcomes of the 1994 elections was the demise of the power of the Dutch Reformed Church in influencing the daily lives of Joe Citizen.

Organisations like the NILC and SACC should stick their purpose ... hawking their product from pulpits on Sundays ... and keep their hands out of our daily lives ( unless we CHOOSE otherwise and visit with them on Sundays ).

Personally, just the word 'Rhema' should become a synonym for hypocrisy and exploitation. It seems true that 'birds of a feather' tend to gravitate towards each other. An organisation such as the NILC should ensure that their members are ALL above reproach, and when someone is using God as a vehicle to enrich themselves, or to leverage political advantage out of people's belief/faith, and by association, their desperation - that is the lowest of the low. Just remember... we all will be knocking on the Pearly Gates some day, presenting our credentials for entry. I know some God-mongers who will be turned away. Shame on the ANC for walking the same moral lowground!

Mandie Sweetie, you are really trying hard to undermine the legitimacy of this council. This is an independent body and anyone is allowed to join.........

We need the christian version of "sharia law" like we need a hole in the head.

In my opinion, Ray Macaulay is a snake! Christianity’s own Robert Mugabe.

How can this “zuma-church” want to discourage same sex marriages but allow polygamy?

No gay marriages, no abortions - what next?
No freedom of speech?

Finally the laymen have found something to do.Since the demise of apartheid they have been struggling to cut a niche for themselves in the new South Africa.Declining church membership,decreasing tithes and a society that is fast becoming ignorant of this christian sophistry,getting muddled up in political rhetoric seems like a logical idea.

What I found rather odd is that if you go within the leadership structures of these churches they themselves are divided around these issues of homosexuality, and arbotion(why did Allan Boesak leave the URCSA?)and now they want to lead a public discussion about homosexuality and arbotion. I find that rather hypocritical

Desmond Tutu has made a huge contribution in this country, so their attack of the Bishop is bit unwarranted.He just like anybody else have a right to take a view on any issue in South Africa

Religious leaders must stick to pulpit and stay away from legislation.

I can still remember the old Calvanists justifying Apartheid because the Sons of Ham were hewers of wood and drawers of water, and the Sons of Ham were black!

Religion can be twisted to suit almost any agenda, and because its "the word of God", it is not capable of being contested.

This just about sums it up: "Evil people do evil things, but to make good people do evil things, that takes religion."

Doesn't this bunch of politically correct pastors have any other thing to discuss, like the underlying factors leading to abortions (instead of focussing on the end results)?

We have to be ever vigilant against attempts by religious fanatics to destroy freedom. What is particularly intriguing is why Christians are so obsessed with homosexuals. They have no trouble ignoring numerous other rules listed in the Bible. Abortion as well. The Bible prohibits murder, but does not prohibit killing and itself provides numerous examples where killing is acceptable, which in fact includes killing your own child. Let's see these people call for full implementation of all that is required by their religious book. They'll find themselves looking no different to those who enthusiastically preach and practice the brutality of Sharia.

Eventually, everyone with half a brain wakes up the the cold, hard truth that, if God exists at all, it is not the God of the organised religions. And if God exists and is the good God the organised religions contend for, it would not want anything to do with its self-proclaimed representatives. Religion is a dangerous and evil superstition that must be kept out of civil society at all costs. I'm disgusted that the ANC has anything at all to do with these shamans!

Thanks JZ, your presidency proved its commitment to engage stakeholders all step of the way. However, S.A is a secular state, we must just ensure separation of religion from the state

So THAT is why McCauley supports Zuma.
For what his church can get out of it.
So they are putting up with a whole lot of dishonest immoral unethical men (Zuma and Hlophe for starters, and the ANC generally)
so that they can get payment.
There is another word for that! Prostitution!
Shame on you religious people in NILC!

The National Interfaith Leadership Council (NILC) is as unqualified to enter the debate about the Judicial Service Commission’s decision (to drop its investigation into Western Cape Judge President John ­Hlophe) as Judge Johan Kriegler is supremely qualified. The interview with Judge Kriegler, reported by the Mail & Guardian, indicates that there can be no one better qualified than he to rescue South Africa from the very serious situation.

The incompetence in this area of the NILC is well illustrated by its claim that the “Freedom under Law” (FUL) initiative could “only serve to further erode the integrity of the judiciary and undermine the confidence of the people in it”.

The fact of the matter is that further deterioration in law and order relies, in important part, in a correction to the judicial system. Perhaps NILC did not notice that Kriegler addresses the ball and not the players. for the judiciary to heal and move forward,”

The NILC could hinder by mudding the waters. Indeed, should the judiciary not improve its ways; they could be held responsible, in part, for undermining a worthy and brave attempt to apply a remedy. It will be they, not FUL for failure of “the judiciary to heal and move forward,” as they claim.

There is something brewing; and is fermented by the very ANC using those power drunkards occupying positions of influence in a plethora of lobby groups. In the end the ANC will have planted the seed for its own destruction. These interest groups will eventually collide to cause a split in the broader Alliance. After giving a blessing to these groups, how will the ANC manages their competing and inevitably conflicting interests? Everyone gives in the hope of getting something in return. The roaring trade of mutual and often complementary interests may be lost to the common man but the effects will nothing but devastating to the masses. The shameless “you scratch may back, I scratch yours” politics, will destroy the legacy we’ve built so far.

The Bible is full of references to the pitfalls of greed and the love of money, and the need to be charitable to the less fortunate. I know of one reference to homosexuality (actually sodomy, not necessarily the same thing at all). There may be other references to homosexuality, but certainly kindness and charity seem to be far more important.
The new testament very strongly stresses charity and concern for others, and does not advocate the moral judgment of others.
Perhaps those who wish to outlaw abortion, will be happy to have the babies of the who mothers cannot afford to care for them. How big is your house Ray McCauley ?

I am amazed at how many people see Ray McCauley and his organisation as I do! What happened to piety and humility when it comes to 'serving' God? Oh... sorry. They do not 'serve God'. They 'Serve Him up!

'Proudly_South African Proudly_South African' is writing comments here part of your job spec?

Some fifty years ago I asked a Jesuit priest "Father what is religion" He looked at me as if I were a cockroach and then burst out laughing. His answer was one of the wisest things I have ever heard. "My son religion is mans explination for something he knows nothing about" I have grown to understand that religion is one of the worst evils on earth by which a small group of fanatics try to control the masses by using the supersticious fear of the unknown to control there subjects. What right has a group of bigots like Macaulay and the NILC to tell us what is right or wrong.

What can these Rhema idiots possibly gain from having women resorting to backstreet abortions and gays living secretly in fear? How does it help the Christian cause or any other religion's cause to do this to people?
Do they want more babies to be abandoned? Does Rhema advocate hate crimes against gays? I can't believe that anyone's God would advocate any of the stuff that these Rhema idiots are forcing down the throats of their believers.
South Africa's constitution is one of the most progressive in the world and we don't need Rhema and Zuma to undo our freedoms. At least now we know what a destructive organisation Rhema is and if they succeed in gaining any ground with this nonsense, Rhema will effectively be an organised crime outfit for advocating crimes against women and gays.

The churches must stop using excuses for their failures.legal or illegal abortion laws will never change the fact that people will still commit such acts.If they were preaching the word of god and inspiring their congragations to abstain from such acts,we would't hv sitting with this problems.

Get religion THE HELL OUT of politics. Stay the F# in church and the mosque.

Kaysee Petong is so right. He wrote at 10:09 hrs: "The shameless 'you scratch may back, I scratch yours' politics", will destroy the legacy we’ve built so far". Even more frightening is that this is the nature of politics worldwide; it's called "diplomacy".

These religious bigots and shrewd zealots have no place in the legislature at all! Keep to your churches and then maybe people will start going back there. People leave the church because of actions like this. This is a secular state. Religion and politics are like oil and water and cannot and should not mix!

What gets to me is the gall of these so-called 'men of god'. Clearly the dizzying and intoxicating heights of the pulpit, from which they preach their hate has gotten to their heads. How dare they presume that they know better than all the learned men and women who helped shape our constitution.

From the passing of the Films and Amendment Act 3 of 2009 into law to now learning about these hate mongers influencing the government into revisiting legislation legalising abortion and gay marriage.

We (South African's who believe in freedom and equality) certainly have a lot of things to be vigilant about.

I am a Christian, upholding christian moral values as documented in the Holy Book; Deuteronomy 30:19; God is talking about a choice, what we need to do is to teach Soicety that Arbotion is wrong, as much as there are underlying factors leading to arbortion, but we need to also take into consideration that our faith in God is not the same, not all people are Christians or want to be Christians, hence God said in Deuteronomy 30:19; CHOOSE, Life is all about choices, Pastors should teach the Word, but is upto individuals to accept the Word or not. As Churches we should not be seen taking away the freedom of people, These two legislation are just emphasis the point which God raised in Deuteronomy 30:19; Please Pastors, here me well, im against arbotion and same sex marriage, and im teaching my person whom i come into contact with about the love of God, but i can not force someone to accept God. In conclusion, by revisiting these legislation will simpply mean that we are forcing people to accept the true Christian values even though they dont want to.

Rhema is nothing more but a money making franchise.

LOL 2 opinion of Rhema and swagman Ray... 'and still the flock returns, and leaves with empty pockets and corrupted hearts!' People are so gullible and desperate they will look to anything for salvation. :(

Seems slightly poetic that today is September 11. Eight years ago religious fanatics destroyed the hub of America's economy and thousands of lives in the process. The NICL looks set to destroy the freedom and dignity of countless more lives in SA. Go for it Ray McCauley, you be the new Osama! Oh, it doesn't look so great now, does it?

Thami, out there are norms that are called morals, your hate for christianity is clouding your judgment. What is wrong with moral regeneration?

It's funny how some people do not accept NILC intefering in politics as they are seen to sympathise with the ANC and in that same breath these very same people see nothing wrong with Desmond Tutu constantly attacking the ANC and Zuma. In fact when he does that he is called a "wiseman" and "enlightened" man.

Fact of the matter is that Religion cannot be seperated from politics even though it looks like a recipe for disaster. SA's constitution, as accomodating as it is, is founded on Christian values. The more conservative the religion then the more conservative the laws. The USA is an example of how religion influences laws where in the South of USA laws are extreme and death penalties are exercised.

You cannot allow Desmond Tutu to interfere in politics because he says what you think and stop Ray Mcauley because he sides with the ANC! that is wrong! Whenever people accuse or insult the ANC, certain people speak of "freedom of speech". So in that same breath, allow Pastor Ray Mcauley to air his views as he has every right to.

The mandate of NILC is contributing to Policy shaping so let them express their views. the beauty of democracy is that not every decision or view goes your way! so accept

i am a loyal and disciplined member of the ANC, I support its broad policy perspectives, but occassionally disagree with its liberal methods, such as on abortion, homosexuality and education. Its unnecessary relativism breeds sexual immorality and licentiousness, which lead to all sorts of social dislocations. However, i am also an ardent Christian. I believe the church is too important to be mixed up in the nether world of party politics, where morals stink to high heaven. Rhema should not become the propaganda machine of any party because it is likely to be hijacked by vested interests. We can fight our own factional battles in the ANC, and for solace we need priests to minister to us as we lick our wounds. If the party is caught in the morass along with us, where would the needed impartial comforter come from? Vusi, Lazarus, Lamola, please stadig here. Eschew the temptation and opportunism. Stadig chaps!

1) The very nature of disagreement is a liberal principle and derives from the notion of what it is to tolerate different political and social view points.
2) Sympathy for the ANC is dangerous because we inhabit a one-party dominant state. The tendency for the uni-polarisation of society opens up tendencies to zanfication which is dangerous to democracy and society, as this Hlope case shows. He is preserved due to the political agenda of his 'hegemonic project' masters in the ANC and this is a severe threat to the rule of law and the application of ethical impartiality.
3) No one should think of repealing existing laws on gay marriage and foetal abortion. I do not support these practices but let people decide what is right for them. If they are Godly, they will not be bound by the laws. Laws are for the law-breakers.
4) I am also concerned by the idea that a hairy clump of unethical law-breakers can determine the application of our morals.
5) I do not oppose the church in politics, but keep politics out of the church. Unnecessary division in the body is caused by a corrupt head.

Save us from the God-botherers and the Bible-thumpers.

I wish that conservative American evangelists would stay out of South African political debate. Their imperialist agenda is so blatant that they have lobby groups trying to exert pressure on politicians to change our constitution. Our constitution is liberal: gays can marry, unwanted children can be aborted and our president can have 9 wives. Our President is extremely virile, and our gays happy. Get over it. Once they start changing the constitution not even the conservatives will have a say any longer. It will lead to our destruction.

@ 2boy The One

The distinction between Desmond Tutu and NILC is not the content of their positions, but rather the ways in which they choose to express it.

Tutu merely voices his opinion when he thinks it appropriate. The NILC is an entirely different, and far more worrying, entity. It is the equivalent of an American lobbyist organisation, and is seeking to ingratiate itself into the political process in a way which grossly exagerates its influence on the South African population, and makes it completely unaccountable.

Pastor Mcauley is certainly allowed to air his views, and he does so without interference every Sunday. But to grant those views privileged access to the Presidency (and the ANC) and to seek to "shape policy" is a very different thing than merely airing your views.

An issue currently on the boil in Britain is honouring Alan Turing, gay and a code breaker during the war, whose work contributed greatly to the evolution of modern computers. The bigots at the time insisted that he be chemically castrated or alternately be jailed. He chose castration but later committed suicide. What is the contribution to society of our modern bigots? Haven't they got anything better to do than worry about with whom other people are sleeping?

I have never seen such a country as our dear SA. Each new person in the government is a law unto his own. People come and go (often after blantant corruption) and so laws come and go. Nothing seems to remain stable. Our friend Mr Ray should think again. Drop an old wife an take a new (younger) one. Does the stable Bible not prohibit this? What about this particuoar and very specific rule Mr Macaulay? What about rules for certain highly placed persons (usually ANC members) which do not count for the rest of the country. I do not have to spell out how rules and legislation can be bent to suit some individuals. Just imagine for a moment how all these rules that come and go influence our economy! It must be costing millions! Meanwhile people are starving to death. I strongly suggest that something gets done about all the murders and violence in this country before you start thinking of nullifying same-sex-marriuages, Sir. At the same time look at reverse apartheid which is blantantly ignored. Julle moet julle regruk Mnr die Politici!!

Simon Ferreira

"Tutu merely voices his opinion when he thinks it appropriate", his opinion is normally getting media circulation and is unwarranted in that it insults the ANC as opposed to debating over and above that he insulted Jacob Zuma together with the DA and various media houses as opposed to actually debating these issues. Desmond Tutu has been lobbying for the anti-Zuma movement and the anti-ANC brigade as well. Tutu is seen as "the voice of morality" in SA. His words carry more weight but that does not necessarily make him correct. He is defended by you because he speaks your views. Allow people who agree with Certain Judicial Decisions air their views... and if it so does happen that those views are shared with the ruling party then do not criticise them.

fact is from the beginning of time politics and religion is one in the same and to expect them to not communicate then that is ridiculous ...

Another thing is that you are willing to protect the JSC from political interference yet you find it ok when the DA opposes every single decision that does not go in their favour. You cannot allow people that voice your views the freedom to do so and criticise those who's views are in line with the ANC or JSC...

Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn, show us the lesson that we should learn.

Ray McCauley and the ANC in the same sentence?! The communal pie, finger lickin' good.

We might as well bring the death penalty into light. I mean, why kill innocent little new borns whilst the convicted get to live?

Call me a simple, but some people's priorities are backwards.

To Rosalie Mayer; "Perhaps those who wish to outlaw abortion will be happy to have the babies of the who mothers cannot afford to care for them' I not sure how old you are but if you were an adult you would not say such ,mind yoy, it is well known that pregnancy is for adults and they must plan for that and there is a lot of medication to prevent that and i see no reason why people should get pregnant then go for abortion if you cant afford to raise a child dont do it or be caucious.

There is not much to gain by opposing same sex marriage under the disguise of christianity or religious belief. If for one second the so-called pro-life self appointed God spokemen can come to realisation that we have some street children and children going hungry, maybe they will realise that their belief is nothing more than a belief-with no substance at all.

I have seen so many children suffering in the T/ship born out of disfunctional young adults and school children. For that reason alone people of child bearing with no means to fend for their children must have their pregnancy terminated period.

Its high time with abolish God story because it is such a useless story, let people deal with real issues and workhard to improve our livehood.

Finally, an issue where we are not throwing racial slurs at each other :) Maybe religion can unite us all, purely through our abhorance of it.

Oh My goodness This is pure evidence of the failure of democracy due to the fact people were coloured with lies and false promises by the ANC after the retirement of Mandela. You know this is the time to start with Geniocracy (more at rael.org ) That is people with "grey matter" running the government. people Like Zuma are easy puppets and easy to manipulate, which would reach the point, who is running the country, the south african government or the church who have a one set ideas to a single belief group tossing the other beliefs, cultures and ideas into the dustbin very much similar to the religious fanatics in the middle east..
Lotsa Love

Oh, now it makes sense why Zuma made a speech at the Rhema Church just before elections. Pfft... Rhema.... Pfft

Liberalism is a neoteric form of political evolution but it should not be a factor in degrading founding values of a morale society. At what stage will it stop, if we allow same sex marriages and abortions than why should we not allow marijuana use or legalized prostitution. What I am trying to say is that a liberal constitution should also take into account that what are our kids get accustomed to they practice.

The Rhema church and its leaders are the DEVIL!

Ray,please get a life.leaders must lead by exambles, how many divorces did u have.Shame on u.Thithers in church are misled.

I am in serious need of a wide screen TV. Mcauley's head no longer fits the old 72 inch!

Hey Guys, Start Waking Up BIG TIME. Can't you see the signs and the patterns od where we going to? i.e.

- JZ goes to extremes not to have his day in court
- NPA miraculously drops charges against JZ
- The secret tapes used for above, still remains a mystery
- The Deputy Chief Justice is overlooked for the main job
- JSC gets reconstituted just before new appointments are made
- Cape Judge President gets off with a light slap

Still wondering what the point is? Simple, the closer you are to JZ with all his unresolved issues, the more favourable you are being treated i.e. the so-called terminally ill Shaik.

We ain't seen nothing yet. Our beloved SA under JZ is headed for disaster. Macauly is a cheat (how many divorces?) that is living the high life (mansion in Balitto - KZN?) at the expense of his congregation who in my humble opinion are all being terribly exploited under the guise of "Religion". What in essence did he contribute towards the well-being of ordinary SA citizens? Where was he when other religious leaders like the Tutu's and Boesak's were marching and actively involved in our fight for freedom? Mark my words, but more unpleasant surprises are awaiting us.

The poor ANC, they don't even realise that Mcauley is using them to spread his own firebrand religion. And then, poor Rhema, they don't even realise that the ANC is using them to spread their own firebrand politics. Or maybe they do realise they are just using each other. It makes me sick! There is nothing too low that politicians and religious leaders won't stoop to.

The religious types go on about the "evil" of gay marriage, despite the fact nobody is forcing them to attend gay weddings. When lesbians face the risk of being "correctively" raped, I find the mere suggestion we start backtracking on gay rights in anyway disgusting.

This is absolute self-serving rubbish. South Africa is a circular state for a reason. It means we cannot be dictated to by any religion on how we should run our life. Why is the NLIC hell bent on punishing the young women who find themselves pregnant and not the men who make them pregnant. This is the typical chauvinism that is intertwined with religion and culture. And thanks to our Constitution we do not have to be dicated to by these bigots. It always suprises me that the religious groups do not make noise about the most important social problem that is affecting South Africa: Poverty. It is poverty that breeds crime, sexual irresponsibility and other social ills that are affecting this country, Yet I am yet to see religious groups toyi toying to government or vociferously raising this issue with government. Instead that is left to NGOs. The church concerns itself with telling people how to live their lives. There is a lot of sexual immorality being committed by pastors. Recently a pastor was arrested for raping his two daughters. Is this a better sin than being gay. That is being gay is a sin. The church or religion should concern itself with things that really matter.

If you gave Ray Macauly and enima you could bury him in a match box. (Courtsey Hitchens said of Fallwell).

Mr Jefferson, build up that wall.

When the NILC gets some public money to "do good things" we'll see the true intent of Pastor Ray and his fellow conmen.

This looks like a process to set up some gumpf and hold conferences whilst syphoning off public money. No doubt the "leadership" will be remunerated (from the public purse of course) for their precious time spent on making nothing.

Much easier than having to go through the tender process isn't it? And its cash direct!

@Jelly Tsotsi

That is funny! That is properly funny!!!

@ 2boy The One

Tutu doesn't "share my views", but i defend him because he's not actively trying to undermine the rights and freedoms of my country. Neither do the DA, the ANC or Pastor Ray share my views for that matter. This isn't about preventing\allowing people to air their views. I'm happy with everyone airing their views. But when you set up a council to "shape policy", "revisit laws" and influence the lives of millions when you are NOT an elected official it becomes far more insidious.

My objection is not to McCauley's comments on the JSC (although it should be noted that he is as unqualified as I am to make that assessment). My objection is the plan to get government revisit laws when he has neither the mandate nor the moral authority to do so.

As for the JSC, I think if the DA, Kriegler or anyone else has grounds for appeal they should do so. Not because i have any particular position with regards to JP Hlophe, but because that's how the legal process tests its decisions, and why an appeals process was included in our law.


"Another thing is that you are willing to protect the JSC from political interference yet you find it ok when the DA opposes every single decision that does not go in their favour." Yes thats about right. The DA and anyone else including the ANC, should use the avenues available to them to seek redress, in this case and every other case, if they truly believe in what they're doing. That's what the legal system is for. At the same time, NO-ONE should have avenues available (i.e."political interference") that are not generally applicable. Why is it hard for you to see that that the integrity of the judiciary rests on this principle?

To McCauley and all NICL supporters:
Jesus referred to Chriistians as a mustard seed in society. In other words, they were meant to be the thorn in the side of every government. They were never meant to control it. We are meant to be the persecuted church (which is why there are missionaries risking their lives in the Middle East and North Korea), not the church of persecutors, which is what we shall be should we persecute gays and women seeking abortions. You are encouraging people to unite in a common hatred, and all of this is done in the name of an all-loving and compassionate God.
God is real. He is not the bearded gentleman in the school nativity play.
As Gandhi once said, "I like your Christ, I don't like your Christians".
You know nothing about biblical doctrine and everything about gaining power.

Every country should have religious freedom, but every government should be secular. Telling people what to believe by law is the ultimate infringement on freedom, while theocracy means that the highest state authority cannot be called to justice when he screws up.

I had waited for this day and finally it is here. The homophobes are still in the house to derail the hope of the continent.

I am pro-abortion and gay marriage. I also do not believe in God. Does that mean I don’t respect people I know how DO believe and are anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage? No. I don’t see any agnostics running around gathering likeminded individuals with the intention of burning all religious texts. I have had a life of bible bashing, but no non-religious bashing.

I have the right to have an abortion if I'm ever in the position where I think I might need one and my gay friends have just as much rights as my straight friends do to get married.

Simply put, it is all about equality. We all want to be treated as equally as possible –as humanly as possible. Abortion-rights and Gay-rights show that whatever your preferences in life, you are human and you life is yours to live as you wish. That is what we should be worried about. If McCauley has his way, then South Africa will effectively be saying that those who have abortions and those who are gay are less than everyone else, and if that can happen, who will they go after next? We are all human, and we are all different.

Let and let live.

This organisation was formed primarily to help with "service delivery".
However, it has quickly jumped to other things, such as wanting to change certain laws.
Stick to SERVICE DELIVERY.