Debating race isn't backward

It always strikes me as phony when whites in particular feel victimised and almost angry when blacks voice their anger at racism in our society.This schoolteacher pupil relationship of blacks having to learn from whites on how to practise non-racism. It is simply disingenous when pages and pages are written dismissing racism in our society. In fact it borders on lying when you pretend that all is well in the elite quarters. But then again, lets look at this thought leaders. Who are these people and where do they find themselves in society? These are not philantropists or activists in communities.So on what authority do they speak? They have no particular experience to speak about. In fact when you read some of their articles you will note that their experiences are so far removed from communities who experience racism on a daily basis. These are not people who have been forcibly removed or people who had to fight for their rights. Cmon they come from a section of the population that has been advantaged for over 350yrs. So why should I not feel aggrieved at this pretence. As Steve Biko says, they talk to blacks over a cup o tea about their liberation as long as the liberation of blacks do not affect their 'neat' little worlds. It therefore makes sense why Malema makes them uncomfortable. It means that as long as blacks build unity and cohesion in this country, they will merely jump on the train at the end of the journey and claim that it was a joint drive!

Read the article 'Us and Them' by Jerry Z. Muller, published in the March/April 2008 issue of Foreign Affairs Magazine. It is available on the intgernet.

I believe that racism and being angry about incompetence are often confused. It's incompetence and maladministration that bothers me whatever the hue of the person. I believe that, depending on the importance of the administration job, the applicants should demonstrate a certain minimum intelligence as measured by a standard IQ test. My perception is that many government officials are given important jobs for reasons other than their competence. That the great majority of these people are black is incidental; but because they are black and I am not and I criticise them, I am racist.

@ Kitty Kat : "These are not philantropists or activists in communities.So on what authority do they speak? They have no particular experience to speak about. In fact when you read some of their articles you will note that their experiences are so far removed from communities who experience racism on a daily basis."

Best we all shut up then, isn't it. If the only grounds on which we grant permission to speak or offer an opinion are to be based on having direct or "authentic" experience rather than observer status...best we all shut up, then. Best you don't decide that some people have "no particular experience to speak about". Best football commentators who haven't played professionally go get other work, for how can they know anything? And on we go...

No one has a monopoly on grief. You don't have to be a dog to speak against animal cruelty, a doctor to recognise pain in others or homeless to abhor poverty. Dismissing white perceptions of race as invalid will only ensure that we continue having the same circular argument for years to come. Be the change you want to see in the world. Starting from a position of "attack" when someone expresses fear seldom puts one in a good position from which to articulate an argument, however reasoned and reasonable.

Dimissing one's honky brethern because you believe they don't know jack-sh1t is just as polarised as some poppie in Camps Bay bemoaning her new-found victim status post 1994. Gets us nowhere.

Let's acknowledge that we all have different perspectives resulting from our diverse experiences. There are good and bad in all groups. We've had black patriots who helped the apartheid security police and there are white freedom fighters who sacrificed much for our democracy.
So as a start, lets stop stereotyping. Lets listen to one another with the understanding that apartheid damaged all of us.

@pamela w.Your emotions is certainly clouding some thought process trying to impose itself. Firstly,whites should stop lying about their participation in building non-racism in this country. Secondly, whites should stop making excuses for their behaviour. Until you believe that you are South African and will uphold the constitutional principle of bulding a non-racial South Africa then we can regard each other as equals. In fact it is a constitutional obligation for you to build a united South Africa. So why the excuses and accusations? There are many whites who understood and died to bring about this ideal of a non-racial South Africa. It is these africans who understood the principles of a united south africa. But until the majority refrain from perpetuating that which they LIE about then how can you point a finger at Malema? That is the contradiction! Call a spade a shovel and at least begin to engage from an honest point of departure.

First an foremost, the use of the so-called "rainbow nation" needs to be scrutinised. We need not speak of a rainbow as if it is something we don't know (how it comes about, what it does, or whether it has got any value adding ability to the lives of those who cherish it). When I grew up a rainbow would often emerge after a thunderstorm that usually happened during brought daylight. The skies will be dark, they will be thunder followed by stormy rains. Thereafter, the skies will clear up and the sun will emerge in between the dissipating clouds. Then a beautiful rainbow will then emerge alongside the sky and the sun as if it is pointing down into the river. The multicoloured rainbow, with its beautiful colour, will often not last for long. I have never watched a rainbow for more than two hours in my whole life. Besides, its beauty and the fact that its colours are parallel to each other (that they don't meet or integrate anywhere), I have never made any sense out of it. The same applied when I heard that somebody thinks that we are a rainbow nation. I felt like this person was suggesting that, in metaphor or simile, we have qualities of a rainbow, a rare phenomenon, that happens after stormy rain caused by some thunder, which does not last for long. I asked myself, what value, other than remote beauty (because the other discovery I made was that everytime I tried to get closer to the rainbow to observe at a close range, it kept on retreating, keeping the initial distance between it and me)does it add in anybody's life? What lessons can we learn from all the features of the rainbow, except that it shows up after rainy and sometimes turbulent times? What negative things does the rainbow symbolism teach us AND that am I comfortable being regarded as part of the rainbow nation? The answers to all of these questions made me to arrive at the conclusions that whoever coined it did not have sufficient time to think about it, but just became more poetic out euphoria, and just thought we were this temporary (rainbow does not stay for long) valueless (help understand the value added by the rainbow to our lives) multicoloured nation that will never integrate(parallel lines/colours never meet),that will have to share the same environment and resources (all the rays of the rainbow go straight into the river) and so forth.

So, there seems to be some subconcious concensus within the rainbow symbolism of our nation that we will continue to see everything in different colours, that we will resist any form of integration just as the rainbow colours continue to be parallel, and that the dream of seeing beauty together at a close range with continue to be elusive just as the rainbow does when you try to get closer to it.

If I had the powers then to stop people calling us the rainbow nation I would have done so when I was still young, because, as I felt, our symbolism as a rainbow was not in tune with what we wanted and continue to want to be, one united, inseperable, integrated society, real and not elusive.

In short, the current racial debates are in sync with the notions of rainbow nation, that has got parallel colours that will never meet, except when we fight over allocation of resources, just as the rainbow colour narrow towards the end as they approach the river or water. Even our proximity to each other which is supposed to indicate that we co-exist side-by-side often tells that we are different and/or parallel to each OTHER as a NATION of different diversities, that proximity will even disappear quite quickly when normality sets in and the distance between us just as the distance between the clouds during a normal sunny day are.

So let's just drop this rainbow analogy, and find a better and positive analogy to use as a positive symbolism of unity for our nation because, clearly the Archbishop thought our proximity was temporal and that we will never be homogeniously united nation from which it will be difficult to pick up an original individual colours that combined to form it.

Kitty Kat, you are absolutely right in almost all of the opinions you express. Unfortunately, the fact that you are right gives power to those that would use that fact to secure their constituency with the majority.

The extent of the accuracy of your opinions can be validated by the polarization around race that occurs anywhere else in the world, where the historcal basis may be well short of the justification for conflict that occurs in South Africa.

But, surely in the acknowledgment of that fact, we can all see that we will not solve any of the monumental challenges we face through conflict. Nor will we bring relief to the poor and disempowered by allowing those motivated to exploit racial conflict, for political self-interest, to continue to lead.

Politicians around the world find sustenance, not in the presentation of sensible ideas that will change our lives, but in the fuel of anger that is so easily exploited through division. I am on business in the US and I have been shocked by the level of hate that has been exposed through the debate about health care. The arguments of the conservatives have been hijacked by those who view with suspicion Obama because of the colour of his skin while the leaders of the left have allowed the cry of racism to overtake the need to justify their proposed policy.

There is no solution that I can see. No big idea that can deliver us to a promised land because if we removed skin colour as the intellectual substance of all argument, the same leaders would find other divisions to exploit. What is needed is a massive movement of people prepared to live their lives for 20, 30, 40 years in a non-racial way so that we can demonstrate to the next generations AND to the politicians that would exploit us, that they can have no benefit from race.

Unfortunately we have replaced the evil of apartheid, quite logically, with a system that forces re-alignment based on race. This, however appropriately, punishes at least one racial group of individuals, at an individual level, who we would want to contribute to a new order.

And while we thrash around with argument and counter-argument, those that truly benefited from the economic order that was created by apartheid go relatively un-scathed now able, with the collusion of a few, to continue to exploit the new order. At that level it is the colour of money that has transcended the challenge of the hue of their skin.

South Africa is in the 15th year of democracy, I think we all need to be realistic on this one. The past has engraved a lot of hatred between black and white in this country and that can not be solved by just papering over the cracks. The TRC did not do anything to change the attitude of an ordinary South African on the street be it black or white. The Government should come up with a plan of building a non racial society and stop talking about the non racial society while they don,t have any strategy of achieving that.
The question that I would like to pose to any white South African is whether they honestly regard themselves as Africans or as Europeans. While there is stilll "them and us" way of thinking a non racial South Africa will always be a dream.
Black South Africans aswell need to look at themselves. There are still very wide divisions within the ethnic groups, if you still have a problem with your fellow black brother just because he is from another ethnic group then we have a very big problem.

@Kitty Kat - You talk about white people having been advantaged for 350 years. This is not true. We have built our civilization up over thousands of years (The same applies for immigrants from the east). We have had thousands of years to develop our culture, our traditions, our values, our way of doing things, our technology and all of the intricate behavior, customs, rituals, learning and traditions that are required to keep a civilization going. We developed all of this out of necessity because of the inhospitable environments in Eurasia. We developed this to survive. When we landed here in South Africa, we brought all of this with us - our thousands of years of advantage.

We as white people generally, because of our culture, inherently know what it takes to keep communities and civilizations running.

All of these systems are inherently part of our civilization, and herein lies the problem. The only way forward for South Africa to survive as a civilization is to assimilate our culture, and this will not happen until/if black people have overcome their anger and are ready to embrace the white people that remain as equals.

@KittyKat
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm allowing my emotions to get in the way any more than I'm suggesting yours are. It's called debate.

You seem to be assuming that a)I'm white and b) I'm South African. I'm not. But I'd be interested to know how you got there with your assumptions.

I think white people in SA need to take ownership of the apartheid past, for sure. All I'm saying to you is that dismissing people's opinions on the grounds that they didn't live the same experience is a waste of time and only contributes to the same old circular arguments we all see online every day.

Instead of acting on the assumption that I point the finger at Malema (didn't even mention the man) or that I'm making excuses for white people and their guilt, how about re-reading my post? All I said was LISTEN to others and don't discount empathy or different views, even if you don't like them. That's how we move forward.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/214989 Kids as young as 6 months judge others based on skin color. What's a parent to do? Not be quiet!

Robin Grant,you cannot be serious cmon really.
@Ian James,there are so many great ideas and so much we can do! It is possible.We have been the benchmark for all those other countries out there and we therefore do not have to assimilate.We have our very own brand and we must go forward. The problem is the intellectualism behind all this action. You cannot talk a job done.You must practically go out there to get it done. But we need a point of reference on which we all agree that this is the point of departure. Allow us our anger, it is well justified. There must be a long term plan that deals with our healing. The oppressors and the oppressed. We also need to articulate the anger and the hurt.For goodness sake, I carry the hurt and anger of many generations on my back and I am but a youth. So where is the acknowledgement and respect? And I am not pleading for sorries or a pound of flesh. I am asking for honesty,integrity and principles. The acceptance of a history where we can overturn all that was so wrong using that as the term of reference. But this defensiveness when we engage about that subject that really hurts for various reasons must be unpacked. I want to live in a non-racial society and I want to accept everyone as a countryman. I want the playing fields to be level and I want to compete on merit. But lets be honest and admit that until we break through our self imposed barriers and the neighbourhood borders we are still very far from a cohesive society.

Racism is a very emotional issue which overrides common sense and objectivity, I cannot imagine an objective conversation on the subject since we have very different views and experiences on the matter. For that reason, I think that race should be left out of debate since we can never ever have a civil debate on the matter. I believe that all races should focus their attention on the issue instead of being side-tracked into never-ending debates. In South Africa, those issues are among others poverty, education and crime - in most cases these can be discussed without looking at race. Bringing race into the equation will without fail always side-track the debate. It seems nobody - who is not the same race as you - listens to you if insult or undermine their people. I think that it is easier to leave race out of debate than to change human behavior.

@Robin Grant...

Er...are you serious? "We as white people generally, because of our culture, inherently know what it takes to keep communities and civilizations running." You clearly slept your way through history at school - where's all this white perfection you're talking about? Where was civilisation in Nazi Germany? Spanish Civil War? Apartheid? European history - like everyone else's - is littered with stories of corruption, inequality and violence.

try reading "Blood Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond if you need to figure out why no human group can lay claim to having cracked the "right" way to do anything.

@Ntlahla Mfingwana. I am a 10th generation member of a (white)family that has been living in Southern Africa since the early 1800's. The African sun and soil is a part of who I am. I have no affinity with Europe or Europeans. I only speak one of their languages. The fact that you ask a question like that puzzles me. Is Mr Obama an American? or is Seal a European?

kitty I'm afraid robin grant is serious, misinformed but serious nonetheless. Robin, round 12 000 years ago when civilisation as we know it began, conditions for eurasians to build settled societies were probably the most favourable on the planet. Then much later on, African and American civilisations were destroyed by people of eurasian descent who stole countless resources and many generations of free labour to become even more powerful. Yet many paler folks genuinely believe they're on a civilising mission still today - all with the best of intentions of course. Many of us on the darker end of the colour scale (where I incidentally find myself) have felt the pain. I can understand anger toward privileged paler folk, I admit at times I still feel it myself and yes I believe we can be racist too in that same nasty generalising kind of way. past victims do often become abusers, think ww2 holocaust and then witness palestine now, racism happens to us all, everywhere. The sooner we acknowledge that superiority complexes amongst the pale are the same as black nationalistic/chauvinistic arrogance the better.

@pamela, my question is very relevant.You cannot pretend a lifetime of authentic experience and from the other side of the fence tell me what I should feel(?)I am not making assumptions about who are what you but that does not mean that you are not defensive! You are defending a status quo that does not speak to the conscience of the majority of blacks in general and africans in particular.

Kitty Kat, there is no silver bullet actualy and while you are allowed your anger, please be careful not to feel that in South Africa we own this challenge. That would deny the fundamental evil that is the human flaw.

At the same time you would not, I am sure, prejudge my honesty, integrity and pricipals. Nor would you, if we are truly looking for a solution, write off my experiences based on the colour of my skin.

I do not believe you are looking for a pound of flesh or a thousand apologies. I do believe that you are looking for a just social order. As I stated, I think (but I am not the best judge) that most of what you write makes good sense.

But do not be fooled by our own publicity that we are in someway a benchmark. We are not. But, and I am asking you to stretch your trust, that is not a judgement based on race or competence or conflict.

We, as South Africans of all colours, lack humility. Our national weakness is triumphalissm. Almost all Africans, from north of our border, that I have spoken to (and that is many) view us with miss-trust. So that we balance any potential racial evaluation, our SANZAR colleagues from New Zealand and Australia have the same feeling.

There is a feeling amongst many I have met that we lack the will for the long and hard road and will subvert our principals for the quick gains.

I, and forgive the views of someone who sees oppression as being based upon the economic order, have already felt the disappointment of watching those that funded and propped up the pillars of apartheid escape with not just a free pass but a whole new set of partners willing to leave the disadvantaged behind. I have struggled with the weight of trying to help children in suburbs around our major cities combat the inefficiencies of the very organs of state that are supposed to help them.

You talk about our benchmarks. Well I have seen, in our country, a 14-year old child imprisoned for 2 years without a trial, and then released as no evidence could be collected. Yet, we scream hysterically about American abuses. I have witnessed the local slumlord evict a 15 year old and his three younger siblings from the shack that his parents had built on land they had occupied after both his parents had died. And then found it impossible to secure any justice.

We are not a benchmark. In fact fixing the problems, created by the previous order, will not be possible while our current leadership remains obsessed with race as a focus of debate and a disguise for failure.

If I had any advice to a youth, it would be to study hard, work hard, lead a life of honesty, integrity and principal and encourage as many others as possible to do so. Let ten million of our 'youth' set the example. Then we can have a triumph.

@Ian, there is a lot of merit in what you say and I do agree to a certain extent.But in saying that, we have had some wonderful successes some of which we are too quiet about and yet we have had some glorious failures some of which we are constant about. Our society cannot and will not achieve that wonderful ideal of the Freedom Charter in 15yrs and yet this was and still is the unrealistic expectation. Also, I agree that some of our gains have been overtaken by this newfound chauvinism which is going to hurt us in the long run. And yes I agree that this is against the backdrop of economic opportunism. But I disagree when you say that we lack humility. I mobilise communities around various issues(not my work) and the sense of humanity and no I am not contradicting myself, is something to behold. And I cannot discount that at the expense of triumphalissm because our successes are tangible and real. Sure there is a lot of distrust but that is due to many reasons. I cannot also agree that we lack the will. You cannot have a struggle that endured for so many years and then discount that in a mere 15yrs. Maybe the true revolution has not happened yet, who knows. But the wider the gap the less opportunity we have to move towards a common purpose.

@Ntlahla Mfingwana -in answer to your question, I see myself as a European African, in the same way as blacks in america see themselves as African American.

@Kitty Kat -I do not feel empathy for you as a black youth, for your parents and forebears yes, but not you as a youth for the past because you did not directly suffer from it, in the same way as I, as a white youth, did not directly benefit from it. I do not see why you carry this hurt and anger for your previous generations. This anger, which feels like its directed at me personally is alienating me, and I don't want to pay for events I did not live through, experience nor have any knowledge of, no matter how much you wish to make me pay for it. I just want to get on with my life unfettered and in harmony with others.

@Robin Grant
" We have built our civilization up over thousands of years"
Are you for real?
Who turned into imperialists and plundered, pillaged and destroyed ancient civilizations the rest of the world for almost 500 years? The Chinese, Indians, Africans etc. lived in relative peace in harmony with the environment for THOUSANDS of years. Your westernized biased education has impaired your basic reasoning and deductive capabilities.

"black people have overcome their anger and are ready to embrace the white people that remain as equals."
You really mean "white people have to overcome their anger, guilt and sense of white entitlement (they they enjoyed for hundreds of years), to embrace black people as their equals" don't you?

@pamela w
"dismissing people's opinions on the grounds that they didn't live the same experience is a waste of time and only contributes to the same old circular arguments"
There are often times when we tend to talk past each other. It feels almost like intergalactic aliens attempting to communicate - not only are our mother tongues different, but we come from different planets separated by distances measured in light years. The grand architecture of apartheid was designed to keep different races strictly separated taught blacks just enough communication skills to be good servants. Even when whites realized that apartheid was doomed they steadfastly refused to even integrate schools. Now we are left with a polarized society still unable to operate from our common humanity. Accepting and acknowledging our role in apartheid is the first step towards healing our divisions. Unfortunately, as you can see from many comments, blogs and politics, most whites are still apartheid apologists or outright denialists. Why is it so hard to find whites who will admit to voting for the Nats? Why is the upper echelons of the DA party still dominated by whites?

The fact that I am reponding to this debate probably makes it clear that the Race Debate has already started.At the outset let me state catergorically that I don't need Malema to instigate any debate - he is clearly out of depth in most issues.

What I believe is necessary is that we accept that we need to address the question of Race via a well planned programme that infiltrates every sector of the community especially the Education Sector.This Programme should be funded by the Government ensuring that it is apolitical. The corner stone of this programme should be Respect and the acceptance that all South Africans can contribute to the Nation Psyche.

The gap will continue to widen if our immature politicians ( from all the parties) continue to show a lack of direction and will.

So far the best debate on race in the M&G.... only why is everyone feeding the Robin Grant troll? Bad troll... Back under the bridge... (He'll only stay there if you don't feed him)

The race debate in SA is fraught with the very dualistic tensions of 'us' versus 'them'. People here remark that Europeans did this and Africans did that as if these are two monolithic groups based on two poles of a spectrum. Some European nations were colonialist while others were colonised themselves. Some African nations also were colonial and some were involved in the slave trade. To continually place them as opposites is sheer stupidity and ignorance of historical realities. The past is far more complex than discussed. South Africa's recent Apartheid past created these polarised groups but surely online commentators are educated enough to realise the stupidity of some of their remarks. Surely Dave Harris does not really believe that Africans lived in perfect environmental and social harmony until Europeans erupted in the scene. The ancient African Kingdoms of Dahomey, Mali and Benin warred and conquered long before Europeans sailed South. Even the San/Bushmen occasionally destroyed a little part of their environment forcing them to move to another part of the Kalahari while the other part regenerated. Debating race is not backward but it is futile while we reify the categories as if they are real instead of acknowledging that they are meaningless social constructs subject to change and reformulation.

"black dispossession and white privilege" True but it has been 15 years and the other factor that South Africans do not want to talk about are the proto-elites who are mainly Black and who, because of affirmative action, have moved into those spaces previously occupied by whites and enjoy the same privileges as enjoyed by some of the whites but where they too perpetuate the marginalization of the majority. Black and white? I reserve judgment on that binary way of thinking on that given my Zim experience.

But it also boils down to the fundamental question that many have been skirting around of “who is the real south African and what does it mean to say the person is South African?” Only when there is an honest discussion on this will people be able to deal with all the issues of who is coming to the airport to meet the athletes and who isn’t and who is being chosen to lead the reserve bank and who isn’t etc.

Man, I'm glad these comments are not written on real paper.

As for me, I'm going to say 'please', and 'thank you', and treat with respect, any human crossing my path; and then I"m going to get on with my life.

This is one of the most interesting debate to be found on M&G blogs. I believe that if it i staken further it will help to remove the chaff that has covered the good intentions and common humanity that should inform our existence. Carry on! Maybe, just maybe we will a better people as a result!!

@ Mukai: It takes an outsider to be able to see the wood for the trees. Because the distribution of wealth largely mirrors the racial composition of the country "race" is the term/paradigm used to discuss it. It's not useful. The experience of each South African of what it means to be a South African is vastly different. Even though the differences mirror race, it is just too simplistic. As sure as there are poor white folk living in shacks there are some fantastically rich black folk. There are a few people who ate the whole BEE cake. For these people the experience of living in a post apartheid South Africa is a dream. What does it mean to be a South African and are you welcome to participate? I understand the anger and frustration of young black South Africans stuck in a shack with no job and no apparent prospect of one. What good is it being a South African if you are not invited to the table? There is/should be plenty to share among us, yet there isn't. Then there is the young white person (R2 D2) who finds that they are not invited to the table either. If their parents are not wealthy that non-invitation is as worse than that of the black youth, simply because they are excluded in terms of policy. How does a white robot become a black robot? So what does it mean to be a South African? It depends on your experiences.... and they are all valid. Happiness and fulfillment do not come from being rich or wealthy, it comes from doing something constructive with your time.

@r2d2,I want nothing fronm you but here is your fallacy.If our democracy is only 15yrs old how can it be that youths today are not directly affected by 350yrs of colonialism and 50yrs of apartheid? Now this is a clear eg of those who do not engage directly with marginalised communities have a skewed opinion of what is still happening on the other side of the 'railway line'.
A debate on racism must be emotional it must be historical and it must be open,honest and transparent. But the debate on racism must include the class issue. The one does not go without the other. But this must not be confused with a current context of EEA or BBeee. That is a mechanism of redress. Racism is nothing new.Verwoerd and his gang went to America to do their research on how to go about implementing their programme. Yes, that state of the Klu Klux Klan. The process of implementation was systematic and procedural and to dismiss the effect on todays society is just stupid. Furthermore, we cannot ignore the solidarity shown by other communities who were affected by racism and this is Pres JZ point when addressing Malema on this issue. Simply because in not acknowledging the historical context of that contribution is backward. Unfortunately media failed to communicate this message properly and that is why we have this skewed view that the race debate is closed. Hence media's untruth cannot hold if one looks at the reaction of govt to the report of DOL DG,Jimmy Manyi. There must be further mechanisms and there should be harsher laws. In fact, our courts should have made an example of those who shoot people mistaking them for dogs, or university students who demean human beings for a joke. As society, it is our responsibility to root out this type of behaviour but reality suggests that it is more encouraged that discouraged. So I ask the question who is the motive force in disabusing whites from their racist behaviour?

Kitty Kat: So white people need to come to the party? How about we meet each other half way?

Yes, History of South Africa leaves much to be desired, but it also leaves us with a choice of continuing the same sins of the father, in reverse this time, or drawing a line in the sand and saying no further! We will make the change, and we will do it in our own lives, because at the end of the day, that is really all that we have any control over.

@Marius de Kock
"Happiness and fulfillment do not come from being rich or wealthy, it comes from doing something constructive with your time.'
I think you misunderstand blacks. Most people, blacks and whites, understand that happiness does not come from wealth. The problem is that the BASIC needs of blacks are still not being met after 15 years of liberation. You may scream that the ANC is to blame, but that does not alter the reality or the need to figure our way out of this quandry.

Black and white youth have the SAME aspirations, yet the majority of blacks still find themselves without jobs, educational opportunities or money. Meanwhile, the majority of the whites retain the wealth, cling onto their jobs acquired through apartheid-AA and have far better educational opportunities and STILL oppose AA, hurl rocks at the government and continue to berate blacks for not measuring up to their white standards!!! The DA is a poster child for all that is wrong with the white mindset in SA, clearly illustrated by the gentrification of Cape Town and the absence of blacks in the upper echelons of the party structure after 15 years!

@Kitty Kat: What is your advice for r2d2 now that we have a policy excluding him on the basis of his previous advantage? I don't understand what his fallacy is? A white 21 year old would have been 6 years old in 1994. What must he do to atone for the sins of his parents and be invited to the table? What does engaging with "marginalised communities" entail when he's busy looking for work he's excluded from? You say you want nothing, but it's not true. What do you want? What is the motive force is disabusing blacks in their racist behaviour.... or can there be no such thing?

Marius,I think Dave Harris makes a critical point in addressing your myth about r2d2 "exclusion" I also think you should read Jimmy Manyi's report for reference in debunking your myth! But lets use a simple eg.
before 15yrs
blacks lived in gross poverty,had gutter education,limited access to jobs,limited access to health services, very little public transport, lived on a staple diet of pap and cabbage, no toilets, dodgy drinking water,systematically endures the worst human rights experiences etc etc.
1994
we have a new bunch of politicians with very little experience, huge debt, little or no support from private sector, hostile public servants,no money etc etc
for over 350yrs.
whites enjoy all the priviledges advantaged to them only because the colour of their skin dictates priviledge.
Now Marius, tell me...where is this policy of exclusion that you refer to or r2d2 lying about being disadvantaged?

Kitty Kat: Your '350 years' is a myth.

The first time ever, that the word 'Concentration camp' was used in the english language, was when the British imprisoned the Afrikaners. About 30,000 people died in those camps in the 1900's.

@Dave. I didn't scream the ANC was to blame did I? Where? I don't deny that the BASICS aren't being provided? It's gotten worse in the last 15 years if you haven't noticed! I make a comment and now it's the DA? I don't speak for them. If I were in charge we'd have the dole! I would promote urban agriculture. Why are does Khayelitsha have no fruit trees in the public areas? Why? I throw rocks at AA because reversing a wrong policy by having that policy in reverse still makes it a wrong policy! That is my choice. If you have a problem with that? Tough... but give some advice to r2d2 if you love it so much? He's not still clinging onto his "apartheid" job is he? What is a young white South African to make of it all?

My point exactly! All these rantings will come to naught coz just like a rainbow disappears with time. The parallel views demonstrate the racially based hostilities between the contributors to this discussion. Everyone wants to shine just like the colours of the rainbow. Everyone believes his views are sacrosanct. Unfortunately, these are ramifications of the sunset clause...the compromise that we had to make. Among the issues that we compromised on (that we should not have compromised on) is the whole issue of the apartheid system. If we there was a commitment to heal the rifts between whites and blacks in South Africa, we should listen to our consciences and decalared the apartheid regime and illegal system. Once we had done that it would have been easy to investigate all those who were directly and indirectly involved in perpertuation the illegal system. These people would have been charged with crimes against humanity, corruption (which is underplayed today because it was never investigated and as such nobody knows the extent of it), mismanagement of resources (some monies were used without any due consideration to laws and regulations to fund projects of the cronies) money laundering, many businesses were not registered and did not even declare their revenues to the taxman, and many other criminal offences. Not doing that gave those who were involved legitimacy of their deeds. Their sons and daughters later inherited all these illicit things. It is important though to note that there are genuine whites who worked for what they have? But I have always asked a question: is it possible to be legitimate within an illegitimate system.

The judges who served the apartheid system, sending people to hanging without a shred of evidence on the suspicion that they were involved in treason, terrorism, tresspassing, communism activities. These judges are still here today walking free and acting as paragons of perfection when it comes to constitutionality. Their sons and daughters are respected business persons, who earn millions of rands. They are unrepented and they still don't see anything wrong with the apartheid system. They want the laws such EE, BBEE, LRA, and other laws that took us out the absyss to be scrapped.

Robin Grant must surely be a product of apartheid-era SA education - not that that would excuse his ignorance of Western 'civilisations', merely explain it.

Mahatma Gandhi was once asked "What do you think of western civilisation?' He replied " I think it would be a good idea."

@Ntlahla Mfingwana: Somewhere in between (are you familiar with the expression 'soutie'? :) I've spent years overseas and am accustomed to trying to convince people that I am African / South African. I could have saved myself a lot of bother by just telling people that I am British. I have often told people that I am African (not South African) for the fun of watching their facial expressions.

@Kitty Kat. I agree with everything you have said till " ...350 years". But "whites enjoy all the priviledges advantaged to them only because the colour of their skin dictates priviledge" ONLY? White people can't go and legitimately earn a living? The ONLY reason white people have what they have is because they are white? If that were so there would be no poor white people! r2d2 simply said he's not personally responsible! "The representation of black people at the professional level was 31,4% in 2002 and 46,3% in 2008. White men's representation decreased from 47,4% in 2002 to 33,2% in 2008 and white women from 21,1% in 2002 to 18,4% in 2008."

As long as there are laws that say you can get a better job because you are black there will be racial discrimination and racial tension. It starts at school, where whites need 92% to study for a Medical Doctor whereas black students only need 75%. Now tell me there is no racial discrimination in that. Government must stop with Affirmative Action and BEE. Affirmative Action and BEE is discriminating against me as a white South African. Take it or leave it and say what ever you want to. Those laws are the same as Apartheid even worse because it is happening NOW in this day and age!

It is the black people of this country that have laws against white people of the country. The ANC government are telling the whites they are second class citizens here. “Just pay your taxes and shut-up” is what the government is saying and any black person that say it is not so is in denial.

I live and look after 2 black families, so don’t you call me a racist and I was brought up by a black woman like many whites in this country.

Louis: Irrespective of how you look at it, bridging the equality gap. But BEE/AA, is apartheid reversed. A class system, giving advantage to someone, over someone else, based on the colour of their skin.

@Sinudeity
15 years later and that gap did change, there are now a lot of shack dwelling whites but only a hand full of rich black people from BEE that was suppose to bridging the equality gap and I mean a hand full. So do you want me to wait another 15 years paying for my father’s father sin?

It is wrong and BEE and Affirmative Action is not working at all. It is discrimination at its worst. It is stopping companies from abroad investing in this country. Jobs are lost, money is lost.

Louis: I blame Mbeki's BEE policies. Which wasnt "Broad based", but merely made 5 dudes super rich, at the cost of everyone else.

Ive quoted it ad nausium, but...
In 6 years, 80% of all BEE deals went to two ANC cadres, cyril and tokyo. These deals amounted to BILLIONS of rands.

"To put it another way a man should be uplifted because he is poor and not because he is a particular shade of colour. It may very well be that that colour of skin was what assigned him to degrading poverty and oppression, but to make his skin colour worth more than the next mans can only recreate the very thing people supposedly fought for in South Africa." http://www.thoughtleader.co.za/michaelfrancis/2009/09/22/the-race-debate-is-a-dead-end/

It cannot be fixed because there are too many black and white
racists in the existing legal,medical,religious,education,political system to ENSURE that
we will ALWAYS have this polarisation for the next 1000 years.
The day this changes is the day we begin be eradicated in a
period of 1000years.
So hold on to you seat!!!!!

@Kitty Kat
You are a racist and in denial and trying to justify your self! Just acknowledge it and work on it.

The problem amongst whites is that they are unable to debate racism. They start off with the same angst and steer the debate into a critical overview of the current mechanisms used to redress imbalances of the past. They all claim collective amnesia and then accuse those who want to debate racism of being racists. It is far too familiar and dismissive.
Firstly the doctrine of white supremacy goes together with racial inferiority (of the other).There could never be equality in the hierarchy of races. Also what about our history of slaveholding in the Cape Colony and the current context of farm labour. What about black consciousness and affirmation?
The more we lie about racism in our society, the more we turn a blind eye to practises which must be corrected. The more we allow media to drive this debate the less serious we are about racism. Media is not a motive force because its interests are closed and hidden. They do not have a stake in creating unity and cohesiveness. The more they promote stereotypes and protect people like Helen Zille and her ilk the less serious they are about equal treatment for all. So I am off now, cos we have obviously hit a hurdle in this debate and until then, we cannot go forward!

I agree there is racism in this country as there is in any other country populated by humans and as long as humans want to gravitate towards other nations other than their own this will continue.
I do however, have a problem with the term ' previously disadvantaged' and with 350 years of privilege for the minority population so targeted! These privileges were earned!! Why is it that when these folk landed on our shores they didn't find much of anything other than what has been described as an 'iron-age' peoples by anthropologists - not even a written language - therefore no history. I would sincerely like to know why commercial farms providing food for the nation are targeted for re-settlement when there are any number of acres of fertile land going begging! Perhaps a system like the Israeli kibbutzeem would be a good idea although it was promulated years ago and totally booed at! Unfortunately politicians have discovered the 'race card' and play it for all its worth - it keeps them in power! I am currently enjoying being able to talk to anyone of any culture as long as they do not attack me physically! Incompetence however cannot be tolerated on any level - it is injurious to all segments of the population - the poor being the most affected. It is not color that defines a person - it is ability.

@Kitty Kat
It is you that go back so far and God only knows. 350 years? I don’t know how old you are but Children that finish school this year does not have the injustices that you so hang on for dear life, as if you let it go you would have nothing to make your own. You would have nothing to blame. I feel sorry for you really I do! You are one angry person it looks to me.

You say this, and then you say that. You blame the whites, and then you talk about black consciousness and affirmation. Hey we all know the course, so how are we going to fix it? And you know racial issues are not just in this country.

But if you are a white male child and finishing school this year you have something to complain about. The government does not want you to make a success of your life. They the ANC Government have laws to make sure you don’t reach your full potential! Affirmative Action and BEE is wrong and it discriminates.

@Kitty Kat
It is you that go back so far. 350 years? I don’t know how old you are but Children that finish school this year does not have the injustices that you so hang on for dear life, as if you let it go you would have nothing to make your own. You would have nothing to blame. I feel sorry for you really I do! You are one angry person it looks to me.

You say this, and then you say that. You blame the whites, and then you talk about black consciousness and affirmation. Hey we all know the course, so how are we going to fix it? And you know racial issues are not just in this country.

But if you are a white male child and finishing school this year you have something to complain about. The government does not want you to make a success of your life. They the ANC Government have laws to make sure you don’t reach your full potential! Affirmative Action and BEE is wrong and it discriminates.

I am white and I was privileged. I am male, and that helped even more. I'm heterosexual, and I am sure that must have helped somehow. Now I live in a comfortable house in a predominantly white suburb. I have some education. When I go on holiday, I see mainly white people around me. I have no sense of community, except for the middle and senior managers from various organisations I work with. The racial split at these levels often does not reflect the demographics of SA. I have suffered a violent armed robbery in my house. All of this is probably the fault of white people in the past. And I probably perpetuate it by enjoying my privileged, comfortable life, rather than doing community work for communities who need it most.

The problem with debate as a means of resolution, is that someone always wants to win. Which usually means that someone else must lose to make the winner feel better. How do we co-create what we want?

"The question that I would like to pose to any white South African is whether they honestly regard themselves as Africans or as Europeans. While there is stilll "them and us" way of thinking a non racial South Africa will always be a dream.

Ntlahla Mfingwana on September 22, 2009, 2:43 pm"

Why do you think we call ourselves AFRIKANERS? Why do you think we took on the biggest imperial might in the world to fight for our HOMELAND, South Africa? We stopped being Europeans when we set foot in Africa. BUT, we brought our European heritage with us. You don't become an African when you simply embrace African culture and customs. You become an African when you love your country with all your heart and use your own background and expertise to better the life of everyone in the community. There is no need for one type of African to assimilate with another type of African. They can all co-exist peacefully and work for the betterment of all.

I will not be a better African, or love my country more if I learn to toyi toyi, enjoy hip-hop, or prefer African music. I can however appreciate and respect my fellow countrymen's love for it and learn from many of their customs. My ancestors brought a lot of expertise to this country, but so did that of Julius Malema. My descendants has as much at stake in South Africa, as does those of Tsjaka.

Don't ever believe that my lifestyle and preferences make me racist. Don't ever think that when I criticize the ANC's inadequacies in managing South Africa, that I criticize Black South Africans. The ANC is not Black South Africa, just as the National Party wasn't White South Africa.

There are millions of Black and White South Africans that TOGETHER, will rule South Africa far better than what either the Nats or the ANC ever could or would. We can do it together! But then we must give each other space to live according to his own customs, WITHIN THE LAW.

Its bizarre how some people honestly still believe that because of 15 years of democracy or being a white kid in ‘94 means that you’re no longer benefiting from apartheid privilege today. Surely the whole point behind accumulated property like houses, trust funds or even knowledge and expertise is that it is trans-generational. It’s designed to be passed on. So yes, young white middle/upper class South African, please acknowledge that you too are the product of generations of skewed privilege/theft and that your grandchildren will probably benefit as well, that’s how wealth works everywhere in the world. Now we all agree that BEE created only a small elite so let’s take them out of the equation for a moment and look at the 80% of desperately poor black people. THEIR parents’ dire poverty and hopelessness and all the associated social ills are what THEY inherit. To loosely paraphrase Antjie Krog, deprivation is bred in the bone. So to all the post ‘94 “victims” crying “new apartheid”, sure BEE is flawed. But please realise that even though your grand/parents may have worked hard, your gardener’s parents slaved … and he’s still your gardener.
Then maybe we can start debating race with a little less amnesia and a little more honesty.

Cathy Kotze, you are right. In fact the term Afrikaner was, according to one professor from Stellenbosch University, first used by a youth, born of the first white settlers in the Cape, who denounced an effort by the Dutch East Indies company to have him work on their ships, by shouting that he was in fact NOT a European but of Africa. Hence the term. Not sure it is true but I like it.

I would just like to check though that I, with my culture based out of the 3nd imperialist power to arrive in Africa (the Dutch and Portuguese being the first) can also have a right to be African and not European.

Is debating racism the best way forward? When I read these posts I see people digging trenches for a long and bitter war.

Wouldn't it be more constructive to debate the kind of society to which we'd all like to belong, and then, when we share a vision of the future, agree on the best way to get there?

The truth is that everyone is carrying so much baggage from the past. Surely the best thing is for us all to put it down, and decide how we can make this a better place for our kids?

"Don't ever believe that my lifestyle and preferences make me racist. Don't ever think that when I criticize the ANC's inadequacies in managing South Africa, that I criticize Black South Africans. The ANC is not Black South Africa, just as the National Party wasn't White South Africa".

The ANC has managed SA far much better than any other party has ever done here in South Africa and even in the continent. The fact that you are able to sit infront of the computer and express your views regardless of whether they are in favour or against shows that the situation has improved for the better. If I remember well, you would not have been able to do that under any of the previous systems and in some of the many countries in Africa today. That is a giant leap that cannot be surpassed. The ANC has power to pass legislations or even change the constitution. I has not done so and it will not do so in any foreseable future.

The issues of poverty and unemployment are issues that were inherited from the previous system. What makes it difficult to deal with them is a combination of the fact that there are people who amassed a disproportionate amount of wealth and economic power during the previous regimes who refuse to welcome new players in this area, especially if they are not of their colour. The apartheid system stayed on for too that it became accepted as natural occurence in the minds of whites that whites means best and black means worse such as South Africans when we speak of standards, we refer to white standards which often excluded blacks and, black standards, which often excluded whites. That is why a white person would not see any improvement in the country and a black person would see a lot because many of the white folk feel that they position in society or their standards are being dropped to equal inferior standards of blacks. There are whites who become angry when a black person is doing well and they often want to find anything and everything that is negative they cannot use. Most blacks in SA have been more forgiving and this also has been interpreted as is it legitimises previous abuses and unfair advantage. How did we end having predominantly white schools and predominantly black ones. Black people are stigmatised by their white counterparts in that when they drive BMWs they must have stolen them or gotten them through connections, Blacks stigmatise white in that when a white person succeeds, he must have benefitted from the apartheid system. But the reality is that all these things are there. When we speak about being civil it is often as if we mean to say we must be seen wearing ties and suits and not animal skins because that is backward and uncivilised. These are stereotypes that have connotations that suggest my standards are better than yours.

At the end, history is there, we all know what happened and what is happening and we have slight view of what will happen going forward.

I challenge anyone who thinks that the ANC has not managed this country to tell me in comparison to which regime, here is SA and in the continent, and even the world?

There are millions of Black and White South Africans that TOGETHER, will rule South Africa far better than what either the Nats or the ANC ever could or would. We can do it together! But then we must give each other space to live according to his own customs, WITHIN THE LAW.

I agree with but, where are they found. Majority of them are in the ANC and most of the people you are talking about do not know a single experience of poverty, yet they talk about it everyday as if it is something they have experienced. For as long as you want to keep to your old advantaged position, you will never cease to see bad management of the country by the ANC.

Shamo Shamo: Let's listen to one another with the understanding that apartheid damaged all of us.
Apartheid damaged the majority of South Africans, but unfortunately there were die-hards who only benefited and supported the system - even helped implement it. Some of them are still around - still actively sowing the seeds of racism and hate through their children.
They cannot respect fellow South Africans and transmit a message of their "superiority" to their children.
It is important to recognise that this type of behaviour is not representative of all white South Africans and I don't believe this group's presence - after 15 years of democracy - is needed any longer irrespective of what skills they may have.
A skill can achieve nothing if it is accompanied by a lack of respect for people. At the same time, constructive criticism of government decisions - and any situation that one disagrees with - can never be seen as tantamount to being racist. Interpreting it in that way, is not constructive as progress is the result of differing views and debate on an issue.

African American social scientist W.E.B DuBois once said that race will be 'the' problem of the twentieth century. From the signs of it, it is appears that it will be 'the' problem of the 21st. Apartheid (i.e.officially sanctioned racism) is gone, yes. However, the thing that is very much alive is the racism that is deeply embedded in our social structures, our thoughts, day-to-day interactions and the continuing inequalities in the ways in which we distribute opportunities and resources. Anyone who thinks the end to racism is just a matter of "kiss and say good-bye", should look at discussions on the issue beyond South Africa. North American and European social sciences thrive on research focussed on race. New fields of study with such titles as "Whiteness Studies", "Black Studies", "Colonialisms" and "Postcolonialism" are big draw cards for students. And this in an age where race is no longer a formal policy practice ... why? Simple ... the world (post-apartheid South Africa included) is still one in which power and resources are unevenly distributed along class and race lines. One may add gender, ethnicity, age if you like, as additional poles of uneven distribution and uneven access to life chances. Those at the top generally perceive those at the bottom of the distribution pole as having natural or culturally insurmountable barriers to their enjoyment of a fair share of resources. That's the bottom line of what defines racism. No wishful thinking about the ends of racism can overcome this. We need to work on building other possible worlds, in which equality is a real foundation, before we can see an end to discourses on racism that are so annoying for some people.

Kufakubonwa, you make very telling comments and many agree with your comments with respect to the willingness of the black majority (most ANC supporters) to work in partnership with people of all races. It is the great hope for our country in fact.

However the race debate that takes place on these message boards, happens between individuals whose benefit from any regime, before of after liberation, has been reletively marginal. The re-alignment of resources and opportunity to correct the previous wrongs occurs at the 'expense' of individuals who also express their frustration and fears on these message boards.

Yet, while we all bat backwards and forwards our views the benefectors of the previous regime, and the owners of the resources which can be used to drag the largest part of the population from poverty, remain unpunished.

That the ANC has come to power and acted with incredible tolerance is without doubt. What is alarming though is that there are many who encourage our debate at the individual level. The desire for redress is then felt in the conflict of Kitty Kat and Cathy Kotze and Alistair Grant amd yourself. That allows the economic benefactors of what went before to be joined by a few new benefactors and to continue without having to fund the repair for what has gone before.

If we all met my bet is that we would have amazing convergence and tolerance for each other. Far more than I see in other "developed" nations. Our dialogue, as white South African people is underpinned by a love of Africa. We have been exposed and therefore learned more about what brings us together than any white American, even those from the south.

There are of course the radical, racist groups who would seek to hijack our discussions. There are also political leaders, of all groups, who will hide behind racial division rather than find the need to justify or validate their beliefs and actions.

And of course there is the media who increasingly find reward through sensationalism. An idea needs to be compressed into a headline that will evoke different, but strong emotion, without the need for balanced thought - "Is Gil Markus black enough" - is one that comes to mind.

But, sadly, the fact is that we will see in the years ahead farmers forced to give up 'their' land (rightly or wrongly because that is another debate) but we will never see Anglo-American or SAB or De Beers or DimensionData, or any other corporation that built its profits and the cash to grow globally, forced to pay back a portion of its profits or wealth into programmes to create education, health care, welfare and hope for the many millions of people that require it.

It's obvious that many of the people who respond here, are gearing up for a race war (also called ethnic cleansing) in South Africa.

"Allow us our anger, it is well justified. There must be a long term plan that deals with our healing. The oppressors and the oppressed. We also need to articulate the anger and the hurt." (HOW?)

"You cannot have a struggle that endured for so many years and then discount that in a mere 15yrs. Maybe the true revolution has not happened yet, who knows." (SO, WHAT'S NEXT?)

There must be further mechanisms and there should be harsher laws. In fact, our courts should have made an example of those who shoot people mistaking them for dogs (COULD THESE LAWS ALSO APPLY TO PEOPLE WHO PUSH BROKEN BOTTLES UP OLD LADIES' VAGINAS AND WHO CUT OFF PEOPLE'S FEET SOLES AND THEN EMERGE THE FEET IN BOILING WATER?)

blacks lived in gross poverty,had gutter education,limited access to jobs,limited access to health services, very little public transport, lived on a staple diet of pap and cabbage, no toilets, dodgy drinking water,systematically endures the worst human rights experiences etc etc.
1994 (YOU ARE SIMPLY MISINFORMED. HOW DOES SERVICES IN HOSPITALS IN BLACK TOWNSHIPS NOW COMPARE WITH THAT OF BEFORE 1994? DO YOU TRULY BELIEVE BLACK EDUCATION IS BETTER NOW?)

whites enjoy all the priviledges advantaged to them only because the colour of their skin dictates priviledge. (OR THEY SIMPLY WORK THEIR ASSES OFF!)

Dear Kitty Kat, not only are you misinformed, you have also submerged yourself in the constant propaganda war that the ANC has dished up as gospel truth for the past 100 years.

No, Cathy Kotze, Kitty Kat is clearly one of the more informed people writing here. Those like you, stuck in the enclosed ethnocentric paradigms of the past, are the ones who are the most misinformed.

I live in one of the most ethnic diverse societies on this planet, and I'm completely comfortable. My own - extremely close knit - family is multi racial. There isn't an ounce of racism in my extended Afrikaans family, and I refuse to be painted by that brush merely because of my origin or the colour of my skin.

I have also never been rich and had a mediocre education; not because of my skin colour, but because of my financial circumstances. Our children are well educated, again not because of their skin colour, but because they studied extremely hard and we worked our butts off to pay for that education. The state never provided.

My family lost everything during the Boer War when their farms were razed and their kin perished in British concentration camps. Not once did they resort to violence against those that were responsible for the first genocide of the twentieth century, in which they were the victims.

If you read the book by Dr Anthea Jeffery: "People's War: New Light on the Struggle for South Africa", you will KNOW that the more than 20,000 Black people who died in conflict between 1984 and 1994, were NOT killed by white South Africans or the previous government.

I abhor apartheid, and what it did to a once proud nation. (My own) I will NEVER defend it! I would do everything to reverse it, because it caused a lot of hurt. It did not, however, cause the thousands of deaths of Blacks in this country. That blame lies elsewhere. As does the blame for the deterioration of South Africa, and the murder of more than 375,000 South Africans in the past 15 years.

Dear Cathy Kotze, I know about Anthea Jeffery's book. If you were informed beyond Jeffery's very limited book, you would know that the violence that killed 20,000 black people between 1984 and 1994 was secretly sponsored by the apartheid government which used its cronies in the IFP to do its dirty work. Forget Jeffery --- read issues of the Mail & Guardian which exposed the dirty dealings between the apartheid government and the IFP at the time. I appreciate that you worked very hard to educate your kids. But Cathy, there is no denying that your hard work paid off with the additional backing of a racist state that provided far more resources to white education than to black education. If you don't understand this then you are indeed trapped in some fuzzy logic invented by apartheid.

Kitty kat and Trotsky Trotsky you are needed on another message board: http://www.mg.co.za/article/2009-09-23-athletics-officials-speak-out-about-semenya-saga - you haven't seen anything yet!

This race debate is only driving us all further apart.

We should rather debate about ways to improve service delivery, to improve standards of living for everyone.

We ought to try to create a South African identity that we can all relate to - to focus on what we have on common, instead of what makes us different.
The USA managed to create a national "American" identity out of a very diverse group of people.Can we not have a South African identity instead of a white or black or Zulu or Sotho or Xhosa identity?
If we do not find common ground then this country is doomed.

"you would know that the violence that killed 20,000 black people between 1984 and 1994 was secretly sponsored by the apartheid government which used its cronies in the IFP to do its dirty work."

Jip, and they also did all the necklacing, killed members of other Black consciousness groups, and burned councilors alive. And of course the hated apartheid regime is still slaughtering at least 18,000 people per year. Jeeze! They're bad!!

Do the maths: Security forces killed less than 1,700 people during the 48 years of apartheid. Since 1994, at least 300,000 South Africans have been murdered.

South Africa can no longer afford skewed statistics. The people are dying like flies. Black AND white people are being killed. Stop blaming white racism and apartheid.

But of course, for people like Trotsky Trotsky (strange name...) the beleaguered minority groups in South Africa will always be responsible for the mayhem. Whey let the truth come in the way of a handy piece of propaganda?

What is the crux of the disucssion in the South Africa context? Colour or race? Semantics? Unless this is clear to everyone engaged on this important issue, conversations will be relegated to the foot of the Tower of Babel. Tragic!

Wikipedia offers this explanation of race:

"The term race or racial group usually refers to the categorization of humans into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of heritable characteristics.[1] The most widely used human racial categories are based on salient visual traits (especially skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture), and self-identification.[1][2]

Conceptions of race, as well as specific ways of grouping races, vary by culture and over time, and are often controversial for scientific as well as social and political reasons. The controversy ultimately revolves around whether or not the concept of race is biologically warranted;[3][4] the ways in which political correctness might fuel either the affirmation or the denial of race;[3][4] and the degree to which perceived differences in ability and achievement, categorized on the basis of race, are a product of inherited (i.e., genetic) traits or environmental, social and cultural factors.

Some argue that although race is a valid taxonomic concept in other species, it cannot be applied to humans.[5] Many scientists have argued that race definitions are imprecise, arbitrary, derived from custom, have many exceptions, have many gradations, and that the numbers of races delineated vary according to the culture making the racial distinctions; thus they reject the notion that any definition of race pertaining to humans can have taxonomic rigour and validity.[6] Today many scientists study human genotypic and phenotypic variation using concepts such as "population" and "clinal gradation". Many contend that while racial categorizations may be marked by phenotypic or genotypic traits, the idea of race itself, and actual divisions of persons into races or racial groups, are social constructs.[7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14] However, the concept of race may be useful in forensic anthropology. According to forensic anthropologist George W. Gill, "race denial" not only contradicts biological evidence, but may stem from "politically motivated censorship" in the belief that "race promotes racism".[4]

Does this elucidate or confuse the debate further?

"Zuma may claim he and his ANC are non-racial"

The sad fact is that the ANC is not / was never non-racial, only in words. In fact, they always believed in multi-racialism.

That is the reason why this supposedly non-racial gov. don't develope the principles of non-racialism.

I believe that the ANC feel they don't need the idea/principle of non-racialism as long as most SA's see themselves as Africans as opposed to other "racial" groups. That is why COPE is a bigger danger to them than the DA.

It's rather dispiriting reading many of the comments here because as long as we frame everything in terms of race we're not going to make any progress. Race as the defining factor could have been dropped in the new dispensation if income, need, educational level etc were used to define where resources should be allocated. This would still mean that the majority would benefit but would not mean excluding people because of 'race' who might need help. It's sick that 15 years into a democratic government we're still asked to tick boxes on forms everywhere stating our 'race'. Apartheid still rules and unfortunately that's the way too many like it, there's always a scapegoat handy.

It always amazes me when white people whine about affirmative action. If we just look at access to education for instance.Its pretty bad all around, which is why it is so noticeable when public schools in previously white only areas (which continue to be upmarket areas) continue to use zoning as a means of ensuring they remain majority white. I know of a school in jhb where parents from outside of the zoned area queue from the night before in order to get their children into a reasonably good school. Most people cannot afford to live in the area.
Even when non whites are able to afford private schooling for their children, there is racial profiling.A non-white friend had applied 3 years ago for a particular grade in an expensive boys private school for her child. To date, he has not been afforded a place. But another white friend with no previous links to the school in question, and with an anglo saxon name, who applied this year, was given a place for the same grade. A race quota system still exists in these white schools . They are not transparent about their selection processes. So apartheid is alive and well and still practiced and maintained by a certain sector of south africa's white elite. The culture and mindset of privilege and entitlement that arose out of a system of dehumanisation and oppression is still very much in practice. Political apartheid is gone. Yes. But not so the other forms.I believe we certainly need a race debate. And until we address the other forms of apartheid, we cannot afford to ignore the Julius Malemas. He is a product of privileged white South Africa just as much as he belongs to the ANC.

Interesting debate, sorry to be late. Quite a few stirred-up emotions, the racial divide is clear as usual. Overall one still gets the feeling that the country is filled with b&w racists, both kinds whom are denying it. But somewhere in-between the rightwing CathyKotze and the leftwing TrotskyTrotsky (both Canadian residents), there are actually a good number of very reasonable arguments being presented on both sides.

I agree with the concept of a race debate, following up on the TRC. Australia (with the worlds highest percentage immigrants) recently held a 2020 debate, govt organised, “aimed at harnessing the best ideas [across 10 critical areas] for building a modern Australia ready for the challenges of the 21st century”. Race was one area.

But people, when will Safricans become “normal” about race? Its silly. We still talk about black and white, while we are pink, brown and in between – much closer colours. It’s a well known fact that “white” Safricans are mixed-race, just slightly pinker than the “coloureds” and “Asians”, ie Africans.

And how about learning history: 350 years is a partial truth. The interior was settled by “whites” about 150 years ago in earnest. (Okay, no excuse). And the pinkish-coloureds did actually rip off the rest for longer than the 45 years of apartheid will suggest. But should we blame that on the post-1990 generations No, please! Give them a break – and a chance to create a new SA without baggage!

Interesting debate, sorry to be late. Quite a few stirred-up emotions, racial divide clear as usual. Overall one still gets the feeling that the country is filled with b&w racists, both kinds whom are denying it. But somewhere in-between the rightwing CathyKotze and the leftwing TrotskyTrotsky (both Canadian residents), there are actually a good number of very reasonable arguments being presented on both sides.

I agree with the concept of a race debate, following-up on the TRC. Australia (with the worlds highest percentage immigrants) recently held a 2020 debate, govt organised, “aimed at harnessing the best ideas [across 10 critical areas] for building a modern Australia ready for the challenges of the 21st century”. Race was one area.

But people, when will Safricans become “normal” about race? Its silly. We still talk about black and white, while we are pink, brown and in between – much closer colours. It’s a well known fact that “white” Safricans are mixed-race, just slightly pinker than the “coloureds” and “Asians”; therefore Africans.

And how about learning history: 350 years is a partial truth. The interior was settled by “whites” about 150 years ago in earnest. (Okay, no excuse). And the pinkish-coloureds did rip off the rest for longer than the 45 apartheid years will suggest. But should we blame that on the post-1990 generations No, please! Give them a break – and a chance to create a new SA without baggage!

It is pleasant to be able to agree with our President.

As the man says, a debate about race will only take us back into the past.

The concept of “The Rainbow Nation” has worked pretty well for SA for some years post 1994 –even if it was a pipe dream, a lie.
All dreams are followed by an awakening, all lies are eventually found out.

So now that we know that we are different after all, let’s talk about our differences (and our commonalities).
In an honest way, because if we fail to do so the price for such failure will be heavy.
Increasingly, Malema et al are saying scary things, we’ll ignore them at our peril.
But how do you talk honestly to Malema (or a Martian)? Even when he is not on his soap box but when he is his level rational best, he is still a (politically savvy) idiot.
But ja, I agree the time for deluding ourselves is over, and if it is impossible to talk race in an honest way with the President or Malema –because the first doesn’t want to, and the second cannot, we simply find others.
(One of the conditions of the debate is TRUE honesty, we went the wishful thinking route before –did not work.)

The chances of such a debate ever occurring –seeing what stands in its way- are not great. And we cannot even say that it won’t hurt to try, because it will.
But let’s go for it anyway –not to rehash the past but to see if there’s a way we can co-exist in the future, recognizing and tolerating our respective strong and weak points.

The idea of “The Rainbow Nation” has worked pretty well for SA for some years post 1994 –even if it was a pipe dream.
All dreams are followed by an awakening.
Looking around us today, we’d be unreasonably optimistic to say that there’s no need to worry.
So now that we know that we are different after all, let’s talk about our differences (and our commonalities).
In an honest way, because if we fail to do so the price for such failure will be heavy.
Increasingly, Malema et al are saying scary things, we’ll ignore them at our peril.
But how do you talk honestly to Malema (or a Martian)? Even when he is not on his soap box but at his level rational best, he is still a (politically savvy) idiot.
The time for deluding ourselves is over, and if it is impossible to talk race in an honest way with the President or Malema –because the first doesn’t want to, and the second cannot, we simply find others.
(One of the conditions of the debate is TRUE honesty, we went the wishful thinking route before –that did not work.)
The chances of such a debate ever occurring on a wider scale –seeing what stands in its way- are not great. And we cannot even say that it won’t hurt to try, because it will.
But let’s go for it anyway –not to rehash the past but to see if there’s a way we can prosperously co-exist in the future, recognizing and tolerating our respective strong and weak points. After all, it may be so that that racial divides exist, but so what- it comes down to the individual characteristics in the end. You and I may belong to different races, but as long as we agree on important principles, we have much more in common than those of our own race and who think differently…

The question that I would like to pose to any white South African is whether they honestly regard themselves as Africans or as Europeans. While there is stilll "them and us" way of thinking a non racial South Africa will always be a dream.
Ntlahla Mfingwana_____________
Ntlahla Mfingwana, although the colour of my skin is white and my ancestry tells my that I am an Afrikaner, my chances of becoming a European citicin is just as remote as a black South African's. There is absolutely nothing in my ID book or passport that grants me automatic European citizenship. If this country does not succeed, if my black bretheren does not want my here, I have nowhere to run. I am just as African as a black South African because my I have been born here, my parents have been born here, my grandparents have been born here, my great grandparents have been born here...

And how about learning history: 350 years is a partial truth. The interior was settled by “whites” about 150 years ago in earnest. (Okay, no excuse). And the pinkish-coloureds did rip off the rest for longer than the 45 apartheid years will suggest. But should we blame that on the post-1990 generations No, please! Give them a break – and a chance to create a new SA without baggage! Heinz Grubsner ------------------------------------------------------

And what about the indigenous people living in the Cape way before the Europeans or the Nguni blacks even knew of the existence of the place? Or what about the indigenous people who left their rock paintings all over the interior way before the Nguni people migrited south from Central Africa? Aren't Black people also settlers (in a country anhabited by the Koi and San and Bushmen way before the Blacks or the Whites set foot in the place?)

I like this debate. Lets debate until we dont have any strength to to keep on debating then we can get on with building our country.

To the youngmen who wonders why he must pay for something which his forefathers did, i have a question; why must the black youths of this country suffer because of the previous generation of whites? Whites people in SA are enjoying priviledges whose ground work was laid by the previous generation, hence its justifiable that you should pay son.

To all those who oppose AA & BEE, learn to live with it. Ask COPE if you want to know how black people fell about AA & BEE.