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Agliotti: 'I do lie from time to time'

ILHAM RAWOOT AND ADRIAAN BASSON | JOHANNESBURG, SOUTH AFRICA - Oct 13 2009 17:27

34 comments | Post your comment

Former top cop Jackie Selebi’s defence fought a no-holds barred battle on Tuesday afternoon, accusing drug-lord Glenn Agliotti of not hesitating to lie or exploit Selebi when it suited him.

“You lied when you regarded it in your benefit to lie,” defence counsel Jaap Cilliers told Agliotti. “Actually, you lie whether you benefit or not. You tell lies.”

Agliotti replied: “We all do. I do lie from time to time.”

Cilliers used an affidavit signed by Agliotti in January 2008 to illustrate why he can’t be trusted. The affidavit, Agliotti earlier testified, was typed on the computer of his friend and businesswoman Tanya Volschenk after he enjoyed a family lunch and “some good wine”.

The affidavit was later given to former intelligence boss Manala Manzini and featured in Selebi’s failed attempt to have the charges against him withdrawn.

Agliotti testified during evidence in chief that he was desperate to cut a deal with the state and felt he could do it through cooperating with the National Intelligence Agency (NIA).

In the affidavit Agliotti had sworn to false statements only to admit in court that they were not completely true. Agliotti admitted that he had made the statement to secure a deal with the NIA regarding his implication in a drug-trafficking case, and that he “said things I thought the NIA wanted to hear".

He told the court that “there are facts that are not correct. Like [chief prosecutor Gerrie] Nel would say this, or [Scorpions investigator Andrew] Leask would say that.” But when asked if there were any aspects where he deliberately misled the NIA, Agliotti said, “No.”

Many of the falsehoods in the affidavit were put down to “verbiage”, according to Agliotti, and small misrepresentations. “For example,” said Cilliers, “you said Nel targeted you through the Mail & Guardian and then you said it’s not true.” Agliotti replied: “He did target me, but I added in ‘through the Mail & Guardian’.”

CONTINUES BELOW

The gist of the affidavit was “to do my best to discredit the DSO [the Scorpions]”, said Agliotti.

“We can infer that if you are busy negotiating deals with an authority, you will do anything to get that deal,” asked Cilliers.

“Yes,” said Agliotti.

Cilliers: “And the element of truth plays no part?”

Agliotti: “No, not at all”.

After a significant amount of pushing by Cilliers, Agliotti finally relented, with the vocabulary of the cross-examination moving swiftly from “not completely true” to “lies”.

Cilliers finally put to him: “You lied to secure a deal that would prevent prosecution,” to which Agliotti agreed.

“Sometimes you lie, sometimes you speak the truth,” said Cilliers. “Whatever the occasion demands.”

Cilliers also told the court how Agliotti initially refused to testify against Selebi, until he struck a plea bargain with the Scorpions on the drug-trafficking charge.

“You knew through the press campaign that the DSO wanted at all costs to get to the commissioner,” said Cilliers. “You held the key to a successful prosecution by the NPA [National Prosecuting Authority] and the DSO against the accused.”

Agliotti concurred.

Cilliers added: “You used that information to secure yourself an immensely favourable plea bargain … and we know your approach to truth when it involves your own benefit. Truth plays no role.”

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Comments

The question is, is he lying when he says he lies from time to time???

Andrew Barrett on October 13, 2009, 6:22 pm

This Aglioti should rot in Prison

sechaba Motloung on October 13, 2009, 6:31 pm

From time to time.

Yeah right.

Creation Rebel on October 13, 2009, 6:44 pm

This is a disgrace... GET OFF THE WITNESS STAND ALREADY!!!! Pikoli is going to hav a lot to answer for... the motives for pursuing Selebi without considering the stability of SA, as per Mbeki's request, will be scrutinised...

2boy The One on October 13, 2009, 6:57 pm

there is no case against Jackie Selebi. Bulelani Nquka and Mr Vusi Pikoli have been exposed and these gentlemen must be charged ASAP. Anywhere lets wait and see

Amaru Bosigo on October 13, 2009, 7:15 pm

This guy is obviously a rat but to say Selebi is innocent on the basis of this cross-examination is quite another story. Pikoli is a decent, honest man and one of the very few in public office that took his job seriously. He knew what he was doing when he went after Selebi.

fred sevillano on October 13, 2009, 7:49 pm

@fred sevillano,

Well, on what basis are you going to say he is not innocent?

Makho Mazolo on October 13, 2009, 8:35 pm

This guy is a witness from hell! Guity or not Selebi is not going to be convicted on Aglioti's evidence - the prosecution better have something much better up their collective sleeve if they want to win this case.

roselyn morrow on October 13, 2009, 8:56 pm

Great advocacy skills by Cilliers, there! I say, the judge will be hard pressed not to discredit this bastard.

Marquis Of Beaconsfield on October 13, 2009, 9:13 pm

@2boy....how exactly did pursuing Selebi put the country at risk? By implication you are saying people holding high positions in government should be immune to prosecution because somehow this destabilises the country. How exactly? What about accountability? Adherence to the rule of law by each and every citizen?

@Makho...his innocence shall only be pronounced by the judge.

Michelle Lame on October 13, 2009, 9:26 pm

sevillano: More witnesses to follow.

2boy: "Without considering the stability of SA" - Like Mbekis recall?

Sinudeity @gmail.com on October 13, 2009, 10:02 pm

@Michelle Lame

Okay lets throw away the 'innocent until proven guilty' and replace with the 'guilty until prone innocent'. No Michelle you are terrible wrong, it is his guilty that may be pronounced by the judge. Unless Selebi is not covered by the constitution.

The problem is that the states case is unravelling. Agliotti is the star witness.

Makho Mazolo on October 14, 2009, 5:08 am

YOU CANNOT HAVE SMOKE WITHOUT A FIRE
a man with one eye can see that u mr drug baron agliotti and ur side kick who cleared ur path so that u can carry on with ur drug trade have planned this all so well that u will all walk free.
time will tell how right i am.
u mr drug baron deserve to burn in hell with all the lives that u have destroyed with ur drugs.

tony rahme on October 14, 2009, 6:10 am

Michelle

As previously stated, Mbeki requested Pikoli for a 2 week delay before prosecuting Selebi, Pikole himself admitted to that (GInwala Commission). Mbeki never said DO NOT prosecute Selebi. The reason for the delay was economic, political ans security of SA, which the NPA is mandated to take into account when dealing with top officials. The fact that he rushed prosecuting Selebi showed an urgent need to silence him (Selebi).

2boy The One on October 14, 2009, 6:56 am

I said it!

This liar & idiot is so disrespectfull!
He shud go to jail 2!
He thinks that a court is some kind of a film setting in Hollywood.This has to stop now, it's so irritating!

$%%%%%%%%#&#$@$@%&#^$&$%^*$R!

GONONDER OMKHULU on October 14, 2009, 7:34 am

Aglioti is simply playing both sides in the hope of walking away from his numerous charges; and he probably will, thanks to Gerrie Nel and Mokotedi Mpshe (and it seems Pikoli and Ngcuka are not far-off from the stink). The precondition for his immunity is that he testifies truthfully; well his "truth" may be that he has been lying all along. Now will he walk for telling this "truth" or will he be denied immunity for lying earlier? The logical interpretation of the deal, if the reports are correct, points to him walking. Now, why on earth would a prosecutor conclude such a deal?

Kaycee Potong on October 14, 2009, 8:35 am

The question which you guys should be asking yourselves is the one that the judge is no doubt pondering: is Agliotti telling the truth now? Sure, he has admitted to lying in the past (which is true!), but does that let Selebi off the hook?

Hippo Crit on October 14, 2009, 8:40 am

Kotch!Absolutely disgusting,Agliotti is playing the system.There is his loop hole & he has taken it to minimise his blows & charges.This idiot implicated our national commisioner while making millions & now it looks like he may just get away with it all.now my problem is this whole case's foundation is primariliy based on his "Agliotti's confession" in his affidavit.Now with him changing his tune,technically speaking,the state as well as the NPA have no case as their star witness is not credible thus the court cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Selebi is guilty of these crimes.i cannot believe this crap!

Mayibuye iAfrika on October 14, 2009, 8:41 am

Lying is entrenched in our consitution. Look at Motata, Chuene and the likes. So no bad bones her Ugly tottie.

Wisdom on October 14, 2009, 8:45 am

No matter what the truth is now we will never know,maybe they got to him or maybe he is telling the truth no however irrespective the prosecution cannot continue based on the extreme lack of credibilty of the star witness.either way we just all got F#$KED!finsh & klaar

Mayibuye iAfrika on October 14, 2009, 8:47 am

Well I cant wait for Mr. Selebi to take the stand.

Erick Mulaudzi on October 14, 2009, 9:10 am

How did i see this coming, Oh this is SA and things like this are normal. Plus we shouldnt be suprised these more to come. hint, hint corrupt leaders rings a bell?

fana fana on October 14, 2009, 9:25 am

It’s now clear why the scorpions were dissolved. The scorpions were filled with egocentric pupil who wanted attention at the expense of other people’s integrity. It has been more than a week and we are still waiting to hear about the “very serious chargers he is facing”.

Lokoloyi Leonard Nkosi on October 14, 2009, 9:43 am

A big question indeed Hippo!

GONONDER OMKHULU on October 14, 2009, 10:05 am

He's got the right credentials to succeed Chuene as the head of ASA.

Chilli Peppa on October 14, 2009, 11:06 am

surely there must be something wrong with the system if you allow people like Agglioti to make agreements with the prosecution? I think by associating with this type of people and his access to information, Mr Selebi still have a lot to answer!!!

The name Agglioti rings a bell(from the 6o's), maybe it runs in the family!

Johannes van Eeden on October 14, 2009, 11:13 am

Yeah Agliotti !!?? we thought battle lines have been drawn,however it appears as if this is another hot-air case. Lying, manipulating Agliotti, one wonders what is in Selebi's bag to kill this case.

Balard Nleya on October 14, 2009, 11:21 am

This is a clear case of malicious procecution. Bulelani and Pikoli must surely be tried for bringning our constitutional state into disrepute. How do you reason pursuing the head of police on the basis of flimsy 'evidence' from a gangstar. Even worse, you still refuse to listen to the head of state's advice to hold your horses and give the country time to come to grimps with the possible ramification of such a move. Now you are in court and your star witness could at best be described as an antonym to the word 'witness'.

Lamuntu Lamuntu on October 14, 2009, 12:02 pm

Agliotti should be relieved of his 'duties' immediately.
Bring on Pikoli and let's hear what stories he spins ...

The Moxster on October 14, 2009, 12:31 pm

Moxter, I say Selebi will pee on his trousers. He has a lot to answer for.

Erick Mulaudzi on October 14, 2009, 1:56 pm

This case is making more and more sense - abuse of the system by both camps to save their respective skins. We should have expected it, but were just too naive and hungry for some real justice. But the farce will continue - and claims of justice will be upheld - after all, don't we now live in a new! improved! and safe country, where everybody has perfect respect for the law?

Thinus Oosthuizen on October 14, 2009, 2:06 pm

Welcome to South Africa, this is one of the boring case that I ever analyzed, first Mr. Nel with your poor witness lineup, it shows that you don’t have the evident .Now I understand why Mr. Mbeki delayed to suspend Mr. Selebi, next time Mr Nel come with something better, Julius Malema can win this case without his lawyers. In other words I say this case is nothing for big man like Mr selebi

Lester Mokobane

on October 14, 2009, 2:57 pm

Frankly after such a debacle Gerrie Nel must re-apply for his job!

Why did he give Glenn a plea bargain?

So much about the much vaunted Scorpions!

mandla yende on October 15, 2009, 10:12 am

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Agliotti: 'I do lie from time to time'

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