'We want the mines'

Imagine this lot operating heavy machinery? Should be a laugh a minute, pieces falling off, arms, legs and limbs lying around. This will definitely be funnier than the Keystone Cops. I hope they serialise it on TV

AMASING!!!!

The ANC government has failed in ALL but one sector after taking over the control –

FAILDED SECTOR:
Government departments (cannot even get a “license test booking” for my 18 year old child – sorry bookings only start in Feb 2010…) Municipalities – SAA – SABC – ESKOM – BEE – FARMS (we are for the first time in recorded history importing more food then exporting) – more UNEMPLOYMENT (open borders more illegal workers that takes work from SA citizens) – … and I can go on and on …

SUCCES SECTOR:
Very Very Rich Government officials (Government & Municipalities) en a few (5) BEE tycoons…

Nationalization the mines will be directly the same as in ZIMBABWE a failed state ….
Zim here we come = 1 bread will most properly cost ZAR 1,000,000 shortly!!!

The sooner we nationalise the better.......this scaremongering is just a tactic. If the white investors are scared then we don't need their racist bullshit in the first place.............

These guys obviously aren't properly occupied and they must feel that their salaries are justified if they can continue to spew out this baloney. Send them back to school or let them vent their anger by going off to a distant part of our continent as child soldiers. We don't need them - there are enough sane young South Africans of all races who can speak for themselves and make this place the best it can be. The ANCYL are learning from their seniors 'who do not disagree with them' - line up at the trough and have your fill !!

Go ANCYL go! we are behind you all the way young lions! Sipho HU i have three words for you "get over it". The people who oppose nationalisation don't want to answer as to why communities living in close proximity to mines are amongst the poorest in SA. The benefits of mineral resources must be enjoyed by all. Mr Hu mentions the high unemployment rate as one of the failures of the ANC, brother this is exactly what natianalisation will deal with. It will ensure beneficiation within the mining industry.

Proudly_South African: Id be in favour of nationalisation of mines, if I knew, that government officials wouldnt pocket 90% of the profits, and pay the mine execs multi million rand bonusses for running another government industry into the ground.

But of course, in your world, there is no such thing as corruption.

Socialism is merely a knee-jerk reaction, by the people on the ground, in response to government and corruption. That and blaming all your ills on white people. R30 billion wasted/stolen by the government. Lets blame the white people. While government officials become richer and richer.

The bearable lightness of debating Malema
2009-10-30 08:00

Tim Cohen

When the ANC Youth League phoned to ask me to participate in the debate, my head sort of spun. I had visions of what we used to do when National Party ministers came to address us at Wits; it involved lots of shouting and heckling, and if things went really well, a few chairs got tossed and the teargas would come out.

I also thought: am I really now Enemy Number One? Have I really become that? The middle-aged, middle-class, slightly portly white guy singled out as the apogee of everything awful in their eyes?

Like most writers, I’m a terrible public speaker; I like to fashion and recast. Speaking aloud, I lose track and stumble. And my opponent would be one of the best rabble rousers in the business. Was I nuts?

But then the youth league representative seemed so nice. I had previously been in a debate on Tim Modise’s talk show with league spokesman Floyd Shibangu, which had gone pretty well in the sense at least that we both got our points across. Planning Minister Trevor Manuel’s injunction that business people were “cowards” also rang through my brain. Personally I hate it when people don’t stand up for what they believe, and I do think South Africa suffers from a terrible lack of mutual honesty.

I was trapped. So I said yes.

I felt even more trapped walking into the Atlas Studios hall. Most of the hall were singing ANC songs; beautiful as always, but not exactly signifying a non-partisan crowd.

However, it wasn’t only the songs that rang in my ears, it was my brother Geoff’s text message: “You are really going to debate Malema ... and the upside for you is?”

'I could not have been more wrong'

As it happens, I could not have been more wrong. The league representatives were gracious to a fault. The crowd listened dutifully, and did not appear unduly offended by my stuttering, pro-capitalist message. They genuinely wanted to hear what I had to say – and then reject it. Thankfully, Old Mutual CEO Kuseni Dlamini was also there to bring an aspect of erudition and compromise to anti-nationalisation side of the debate, which I obviously could not.

But the true eye-opener for me was Malema himself. He was just masterful. He had that sense of poise and instant likability of a great speaker, combined with the feel for where the audience is that makes for the best kind of stand-up comic. Sure, he had a hometown audience; sure, he is by now a practiced public speaker; and the process was also skewed in his favour so the he both opened and ended the debate. Even so, I think in all honesty, if it were a boxing match, he won nine rounds out of ten.

His speech may have been filled with factual inaccuracies, misinterpretations and the conflation of facts and events. Yet his balance was spot on; he didn’t speak down nor up to his audience. He had that curious, instant oneness that some people just have with an audience.

All the great populists speakers of the past came instantly to mind, Huey Long in particular, perhaps also Eva Peron. Is the ANC transforming into a Peronist movement, I wondered; that confused mix of nationalistic capitalism and socialistic populism? It's possible.

As for Malema, I couldn’t help feeling slightly ashamed of my profession on his behalf. My only previous experience of him was the snippets I read in the press and that I had seen on television. In all of them, he’s typecast as “controversial” and “outspoken” – journalese sub-text for “wrong”.

I could sense reporters waiting for that one sentence which would satisfy the now firmly established public preconception. It’s the same way we used to report on AWB leader Eugene TerreBlanche, waiting with pens poised for that one nutty sentence which we could emblazon across the paper with the unwitting sub-text that he is awful and therefore the rest of us must be good.

The problem is hypocrisy. When the West go nationalisation route it's called 'Bail-Outs' when Africans do the same it’s called 'Madness'. When companies bribe government officials it's called 'Relationship Management' when government officials accept bribes it's called 'Corruption'. When America kill innocent children in the Middle East it's called 'Bringing Democracy' when the Middle East returns the favor it's called 'Terrorism'. I can go on and on. Nationalisation has brought development in SA but it was only correct when it was done by the National Party now that it’s time for the ANC, it's suddenly not appropriate. Let's stop labeling things to defuse the deliberate confusion hidden in words. The reality is that SA society is highly disfigured and requires massive government intervention. In fact the most successful countries going forward will be those where governments are more active. USA, UK and other Western countries are only learning that lesson now. China, Middle East and Africa have always known this fact.

Nationalise mines? Why?

Free education is it? We have one of the biggest education budgets but no idea how to spend it? How is operating a mine going to acheive this?

And this is a "first step"? And then what, eventually the spaza shops will have to be nationalized "for free education".

This is all smoke and mirrors and reminds me of the Bolshevik's propaganda to commit armed robbery on it's citizens.

Anybody who supports this is either in the elite and will make billions or is too ignorant to know that nationalization does sweet F-all for the poor. In fact it makes them even poorer!!!

Nationalization has failed in every single instance it has been tried for the simple reason that whoever gets the job of controlling the asset behaves worse than the supposedly evil capitalist he replaces. He behaves worse because he has no accountability.

The people are then kept too poor, uneducated and desperately trying to find food to fight the powerful.

the only people who benefit are the ruling elite.

It's a type of modern serfdom for the citizens.

Smacks of Bolsehvik Russia, North Korea, Cuba.

Perhaps it is in this context that Jacob Zuma's call for less control on the police's ability to use dealy force; uniting the police under a single, militaristic command; and tightening already unnecessarily restrictive firearm laws for the citizenry should be seen?

Free countries have their governments by the short and curlies, not the over way around.

Proudly

"Or but he speaks so well so they said of General Collin Powell thereby convincing Chris Rock that Gen Powell would never become the Republican candidate for President of the United States. The polite politically correct Cohen by not making the gist of his article or evn scantily making any reference about the merits of Malema's argument and focusing more on mannerisms and civilities is more than a trifle intellectually condenscending to Malema and crew.

Note: "His speech may have been filled with factual inaccuracies, misinterpretations and the conflation of facts and events".

To be told you speak well and not have your argument addressed similarly is to be told that though "retarded", you are not that "retarded" even if you just waffle. It's like somebody marvelling at your accent.

Freedom

You underestimate the resistance to bail-outs in the US and UK. The bail-out route was a bad call as it places the burden on future taxpayers.

Many commentators in the US and UK are angry about it. If a company has had its time, its time for it to be wound up.

None of the bail-outs have had any real benefit for the economies concerned.

@ Freedom Ndlovu. You, and those in favour of nationalisation make a fundamental mistake. Nationalisation can work only work when its done within a framework of a stable and properly working democracy where accountability is possible. By that, I refer to a situation where a ruling party can be ousted if they do not deliver. This is where SA has a problem, because we are a de facto one party state. Let's face it, although we subscribe to democratic principles in SA, it is quite far fetched to imagine that the ANC will lose control soon. Therefore, nationalisation of state assets in SA will occur in similiar ways that have been done in other semi-communist states. There you will find that nepotism and corruption are rife, i.e China. Contrary to what you may think, nationalisation under the old apartheid banner was NOT successful nor sustainable. You cannot play the game on both sides. Nationalisation can make sense under certain circumstances when there is sufficient structures in place to ensure accountibility. But our government has failed in its management of core assets such as Eskom, SABC, SAA, etc. as any other government would have failed in an environment where there is the absence of accountability. Despite these failures, they are still in power. The mining industry is one of the pillars on which this country is built and you want it to be controlled by an organisation that has no incentive to cut costs, drive efficiency or set production targets and no accountability? To the workers this sounds great, but they have no idea of what it takes to run a successful mining operation. Besides, who in his right mind is going to dig for gold 2km underground in 50 degrees Celsius when there are no profit incentive? You guys are very quick to draw, but your ideas are not well thought through.

The boers are sh*tting their pants right now.You may complain or critisize or insult all you like but hear this:If the ANCYL says it will happen,then it will happen.Whatever mboweni and his gang of wild d*gs are saying.

Another thing,all you capitalists and racists and Copers, you do better prepare yourself emotionally,just like you did when JZ marched to Union Buildings.Or go to Canada.

proudly_south african. Are you bored today? What was that diatribe about? Stealing company time again today?????? Sorry there dude, writing is definately not your forte. Stick to the brown nosing dude.

I love the heading. "We want the mines". Therein lies the problem. Want, want, want and want again!!!!!! There's a lot I want but unfortunately I have to be patient and earn it.

What people who support nationalization of industry don't understand is that the money earned off the mines goes to the central Treasury.

Not one red cent is going to go to the communities surrounding the mines. Those communities will ony "enjoy" ownership through the government.

Best you supporters of nationalzation drop the emotional propaganda and see the truth of the matter.

There are no benefits to nationalization for the country's citizens. None at all and the ANCYL is lying when it says otherwise because it knows that the only benefit is for the ruling elite.

Tough truth. Deal with it and move on.

It is like trying to let pre-schoolers run a university! Look what happened to Zambia's economy when they went that route. I bet if they could turn back the hands of time they would not go for nationalisation!

Is going to canada mandatory for those that disagree with nationalsiation ANCYL policy? If so, will those who disagree be forced to move, and therefore we the tax payers woudl have to pay for it, or are we envisaging more of a pay your own way type of forced migration? I vote for letting the chickens pay theor own way. We could also nationalise their houses.

Proudly South African – your comments expose you as a BLACK RACIST. You should get educated and understand that racism is not restricted to white on black. Attitudes like yours are the handbrake that is holding South Africa from moving forward and will be the attitude that takes you backward to a state like your white hating brother Bob up north.

I believe that the world is waking up to your type and in certain cases comments like your are subject to prosecution for hate comments.

Best you stay in South Africa with your comrades.

Viva 2010

Before we can engage in talks of nationalising the mines, we need to go back to the drawing board and understand how did we end up where we are right now. Let us review BEE and all it's failures, lets us look at how best can public enterprises be run in order for them to empower people, let us review government official's salaries, allowances and benefits, let us also review how money meant for agricultural projects is spent, let us review if all work done by various state agencies is being carried out properly, let the government have a strong hand when dealing with corruption. Let's try to sort out problems that are on our plate, before we can say government doesn't have money. The ANCYL is trying to put nationalisation of mines on a rotten foundation, and like BEE this could be another failure because there's too much mischieve in the government. Pouring more money into government is not the answer when government does not know how to manage money, they must first learn how to make the best out of what they have before trying to acquire more, else they gona fuck up mines and we are going to be like most of our African countries.

julius ledwaba, It makes me worried as a teacher who taught 3 of ANCYL current members around 3 years ago, while at school they were seldom in a class of mine or even at school. Suddenly the same "comrades" enter schools and talk Education. If they are our saviours, Julius I am really worried, since when do we have a youth group dictating to Gove and the parent body on how to run matters of national concern. They [ANCYL] and its immature members are going to be the downfall of our country. Julius I grew up in the townships, I have many many friends who still live in the townships, ANCYL members are seen as members of the DRC hit squads, are they the type of people we want to be leading my children or grand children. I have actually told my children and grand children about the goals of the ANCYL!!!!

The mines will become less productive under government control, and will very likely be used by ANC fatcats as a bank account, much like Mobutu did with his mines in Congo. I suspect that Mr Malema has his eyes on them as his personal pension fund.
The 60% owned by the government will fairly quickly become worth less than the government currently gets from taxation, so the net result is less money to spend on education, healthcare and service delivery.

@Mc Lovin, Zoo keeper and the likes. You have all become self-appointed defenders of the status quo. The illusion called 'free market' system is just as bad if not worse than nationalisation. The so-called market friendly system has ensured that both black and white ruthless capitalists benefit disproportionately from the workers. I do not want to enter an ideological debate as there can be no winners. SA is already a socialist state with space for capitalists. Mining contribution to GDP keeps on shrinking. We have an army of unskilled labour that cannot be ignored. The mines must support government’s employment objectives. We're not saying government must run the mines. We are saying government must own the mines in a same way it owns Transnet. The failures that we have seen in most parastatals in the recent past must come to an end. The positive role of government in boosting employment during the current recession cannot be ignored. Our ability to turnaround parastatals will signify our rediness to move to other industries. The role parastatals played in skilling the current breed of Afrikaner executives cannot be ignored. Why are Africans not given the same time and opportunity?

Hi ANCYL
There are many issues here that have attracted intelligent contributions.Clearly the mining sector have not made a meaningful contribution to SA public at large.The call for Nationalization is however not the correct one.

The overiding concern is the many social evils that the SA poor face. The challenge facing mining companies is how to facilitate uplifting the poor and supporting meaningful change.

Government should stay from Nationalization as Eskom,Sport,Crime etc need your full attention

Running mines(or any other entereprise!)at a loss is not substainable. Failure to prepare a business plan may well lead to failure of the operation and loss of jobs. So start preparing your business plans. Base this on the model of all the successful nationalised mines. Don't try something that has not been done before. This will just jeopodize the jobs of the people you are trying to protect. Good luck!

@Julius Ledwaba: hear THIS: You will sing another tune when you and your ilk come running to the WEST, hat in the hand, begging again for funding and aid - just like 90% of Sub-Saharan Africa. You are obsessed to have, have, have, but your track record show that you cannot manage that. Thank Goodness for enlightened ones like Sipho Hu and Mpo Lutha who has enough vision and (dare I say) intelligence to lean towards a "walk together" strategy instead of this militant, borderline-criminal opinion of yours and people like Proudly_South African, Freedom Ndlovu and the likes.

@ Freedom Ndlovu. You see, you hardcore socialists have no idea where money comes from. You think you can just press a button and the machine prints money to spend. That, my friend, is the real illusion. Capital markets (where money comes from) revolves around RISK and RETURN. You guys only consider the return, but you don't want to acknowledge that the taxpayer carries the RISK portion of the equation.

That is where the free market comes in and it will explain to you why countries like Australia (who by the way are also big time commodity exporters) can have private money funding their railroads and bridges. Why? Because the Government has been successful in its single most important task, and that is to create an environment conducive from foreign investment.

That should be our government's number 1 priority and it should focus on the education of the masses, bringing down crime and providing a legal framework within which the private sector can provide basic services. Nationalisation is a step in the wrong direction.

The world's history is riddled with examples of failures when governments intervene and the only people who then lose are the poor. In fact, the bloody mess we have here in SA is due to the fact that the Nats intervened in the free market! Now you want to go and do exactly the same thing? Do a bit of homework and you will find that wherever in the world you find a truly free market, you have low unemployment. However, where you have high levels of government intervention you naturally create unemployment because it boils down to an inefficient allocation of capital.

That is the model that we should adopt, not the socialist driven ideology of government intervention that consistently waste money through inefficient allocation of capital. Like you say, we have armies of uneducated workers. The only way we will be able to employ them in the long run is with the help of foreign investment. There is no other way that it could happen in a sustainable way.

Gatsheni well stated........if they don't understand let them it cake, we are all for nationalisation of our resources, the debate should be the how than the why??. Also its important to first invest in education with science and maths at the core of it all.

It will be a disgrace if merely substitute gatekeepers and still ship out unprocessed minerals out of the country. Priority number one create credible scientist, phase two abolish provinces and centralise economic development of the country . Thirdly create
mineral processing industries.....the benefit of that will be huge and instant creation of full employment of all the productive labour.

I still don't understand who in his right mind will still try and defend capitalism in its pure form ........See where is China today followed by India and see where is America going, I hope diehard pro-West foot soldiers lighten up a little.

They messed up eskom,saa,healthcare,roads,safety,border controls,justice system,army,navy,correctional services.We have nothing left to be proud of..except sars.Which for their benefit because of the revenue they collect.JUST GIVE THEM THE BLOODY MINES SO THAT THEY MESS UP THE ECONOMY AS WELL!!

Viva ANC you have my 100% support on this one.

I have no problem with the reasons behind wanting to nationalize mines. The people should definitely benefit more from the country's mineral wealth. The issue that is still making me hestitant about this adea though is the process of nationalization. The most important question asked in this intervew is: "How do you envisage nationalisation would be carried out". A detailed answer to this question still has not been given by the ANCYL. This cannot be a case 'of lets make the policy and we'll deal with the strategy and tactics later'. Have feasibility studies been done? Has there been some sort of scenario analysis to ensure that government can deal with the circumstances that may arise after seizing control of the mines? And as asked in the interview: "How is the government expected to raise the money for nationalisation when revenues are falling?" These are the critical questions that there must be answers to before all this noise is made about nationalization. As an ANCYL member, I only hope that all of this has been thought through thoroughly!

The sooner we nationalise the better.......this scaremongering is just a tactic. If the white investors are scared then we don't need their racist bullshit in the first place.............
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Proudly, why? you won't get a stinking cent out of the deal!

I am an ANC supporter,All those who support Nationalisation ,,should do their homework thoroughly.South Africa has never been a purely capitalist state,because the truth is ,,for a country like ours you need to strike a balance between encouraging production and income at the same time adressing social problems affecting the masses.The ANCYL should stop missleading the masses ...the reason that the masses are still poor is not because of bussiness. Its due to lack of service delivery ,corruption ,careerism in the ANC. Let the truth be told.

>> Q: Which sectors of the economy are you targeting?
A: For now we are thinking of mining as a primary objective. Later we will look at other sectors, including state-owned enterprises <<

Does anything strike you as odd about this statement? Aren't state-owned enterprises already nationalised? I can't believe that non-one else has spotted this! ANCYL reaches for its usual analytical heights.

The counter by big business will be to support and fund an opposition political party ie if the government moves into the mining industry, the mining industry will move into politics. With the resources at their disposal, the mining industry can create havoc in the political sphere...in a morally bankrupt society, votes can be bought and the mining industry has more resources at its disposal than the ruling party

Sydney, you can't compare us to China. In China if you are caught with your hands in the cookie jar (stealing, corruption etc..) you face the death penalty. Here in this country you just get promoted and sit in parliament. That is why the Chinese are succesful and we never will be.

Freedom

Not enter the ideology debate?? Why, because you will lose hands down??

Besides, what is the difference between owning and running???? Does Transnet own but not run the railways??? Who runs them then except Transnet???

What planet are you on??

Give me one example of a country that benefitted from nationalization. Just one. Not one that is recovering from it (like China or Russia).

Please? Please give me one?

When we drink alcohol to the point that we cannot cope without it, we convince ourselves that it is right to use it. The truth is we are sick. We need to get the poison out of our system.

Nationalization; I believe we need to give it a chance.

We are all entitled to our opinions (free speech) I agree with nationalization and I respect all those who disagree with it. Fortunately we have a process to decide on this, we will debate and ultimately use our vote.

However I am worried about the way some of us understand Democracy (Majority Rule), if people are conerned about the ruling party winning Democratic elections more than once.

How should we formulate our Government? Should we go to Polls even if the party wins majority, we just apoint from all parties? Is that Democracy?

It's unfortunate that some of us believe in individualism that came with the West, that is foreign to us. We believe in working together as a Community to achieve Communal goals.

More and more fools are hopping onto the nationalization bandwagon everyday. These optimistic ideologists must learn to crawl first before they try to run.
There's a saying: "You don't have to make your own mistakes, you can learn from the mistakes of others" - and there are more than enough examples as far as nationalization is concerned.

Hi julius ledwaba, I think your comment,

"The boers are sh*tting their pants right now.You may complain or critisize or insult all you like but hear this:If the ANCYL says it will happen,then it will happen.Whatever mboweni and his gang of wild d*gs are saying."

firstly that is blatant racism, unless you can proof where any farmer have a majority share in any mine? and I am a white south african, and I do take offence in your comment, even if it is not directed towards me, since when am I a farmer, I will be glad to meet up with you and should you show me my farm, then you can go ahead and call me a boer, who gives you the right? o wait now the Reitz four and the Waterkloof four, and the Sun City Idiot is going to be throw in my face, however please do yourself a favour, and please, and please go and read my comments on these idiots, and you will notice that I have clearly distant myself, as being a proud white south african, that wants to make this country works, then you may say that i have shares in a mine house, once again, wrong! I dont have, so please keep your racist venom for yourself
Ps. mostly all of the mining house was overseas created companies! or what do you call Brett Keble?
Secondly what it boils down to is fascism, kindly go and read up your history, did you know it was one of the factors that lead to the second world war, people died, 60 million ...
Thirdly, that if the ANCYL, or any of the guys on the comment can show me, one successful parastal, without some greedy, power monger, somehow either was fired or promoted, or given a golden handshake, and it is ok, it ok to steal, it ok for him to drive that BMW, when it could have fed, schooled, give so much more, yet greed is ok, number one is ok, and I am not against any person, irrespective of his colour, making a success, money does not know a skin colour, people does! and well done to anyone that made a success of his and her life, however when it comes to my tax money, then it is a different case, if I have to spend extra cash on security, hospitalization, education why, because someone had his hands in the cookie jar, someone was there because of his well of connections within the ANC.
Now someone is going to probably tell me that I am DA, and I voted DA, well, once again I am glad to meet up with anyone on this page, and if they can proof where my name appears on the DA role, as my name suggest No Political Connection, until I can get a party that is willing to do something, then they have earned my vote, until such time, sorry, I am not in for "talk shop parties"
however to get back to my point, that the parastals in not running healthy at this given stage, it reeks to high heavens of it sickness, now they want to add to the cancer.
Then how would nationalization benefit the country, part from chasing away a couple of potential investors, that we need to make the economy grow, and create new job, o wait that Eskom already done, it drove a couple of investors away. Except benefiting a couple of fat cats, if we cannot get the basics right, how are we going to get something far more complicated like mining right, if we cannot, expand on an existing health care, that was in place, what will happen to the mines, if we cannot build on existing transport, the railway is a mess, what will happen to the mines?
If, the ANCYL wants to be in accordance to the freedom charter, what about security? what about health care? are we also going to nationalize the security companies, and inherit sleeping guards? or are we going to nationalize the hospitals and mess it up?

Now here is a suggestion that I think might work
1. either the government of the mining house, allocated a block of shares, the block of shares gets allocated through a vetting system to ordinary SA citizens (and yes, I am in favour of the idea, that historical disadvantage, either get the most or everything, as my father and my grandfather made some decision that was not good for the country), now this can either be loaned, and when these shares mature, then the person pays the loan account of, this will not only be a BEE, system it will be, seen that ordinary SA citizen gets their hands on the wealth, the mine house still have the lion share of the mine, hence it is in its own interest to continue mining, where as a 60/40 interest that it might seen that it is not worth it while and withdraw, what then Juluis?
Force these mines, and don’t single out the mines, only all big corporations must take a certain amount of their profits, and invest it in the community, as a non marketing tool, with other words they are not allowed to say company X computer school and brand it, however they are allowed to use it as a PR tool, if they don’t want to go that route tax them for it, and use it, to invest it again, plant trees, build roads, upgrade communities, build schools, hospitals, police stations
Then some of these big companies I think needs to be split up, i.e. tiger brands, rather let them split all their companies which they got through ill gotten wealth (bread, milk and medicine price fixing) split it up, build up these companies, and make them strong, then instead of having one CEO, you will have 10, think of the BEE opportunities that will be available then, the employment opportunities, the easiness it will be for Mr. Young entrepreneur to penetrate to, market, and leave us, Mr. consumer with more and more choices, now kindly debate my words

Don't we have enough state institutions that have been ruined - Gosh these imbeciles never learn do they?

I am simply relieved that we're finally seeing some real debate about how to address obvious imbalances. It is impossible to achieve meaningful redistribution of resources with the current strategies. It is equally obvious that very, very little has changed in terms of who has resources and who does not.
At what point are we going to agree that platitudes like the unveiling of plaques to commemorate forced removals in areas that now belong to those who still own the majority of the county's resources is just not good enough.
It is time to give the people meaningful access to bread and clean water and water borne sewerage systems and land and education.
Don't stop pushing. In fact, push hard.

@Mthuthuzeli Gqokoma on October 30, 2009, 8:47 am

"The people who oppose nationalisation don't want to answer as to why communities living in close proximity to mines are amongst the poorest in SA."

What guarantees are there that these poor people will be better off after nationalisation? They are already worse off after 15 years of ANC rule.

"It will ensure beneficiation within the mining industry."- this does not guarantee that the poor will be better off.

"Mr Hu mentions the high unemployment rate as one of the failures of the ANC, brother,this is exactly what natianalisation will deal with."

Can you show me where nationalisation has resulted in higher employment rates?

Nationalisation is a great idea! BUT the greediness, corruption and serious mismanagement of state institution by our government only means that we are going to have a crisis already in the planning phase of nationalsisation and if it eventually pulls through we gonna have another round of service delivery strikes because of high expectations raised by this idea.
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The government should be fixing current problems in state institutions (SAA, SABC, ESKOM, BEE & agriculture), thoroughly study why government intervention is failing in these sectors and groom competent leaders before moving on to bigger things like nationalisation.

It is likely that nationalising the mines will happen at some stage, because:

-The ANCYL wants it. (J Malema was already touted as the coming pres. of SA by JZ)
-The ruling elite will now be able to get their hands on REAL wealth (it will make the Arms Deal or Oil Gate look like a church bazaar)
-The Africans are angry (at themselves –even if they do not know it) because it is clear that after 15 years of ANC rule they are simply not able to cut the mustard; some crazy auto-destruction comes into play.
-It will placate the dissatisfied unemployed and impoverished masses who will be promised that “the wealth of mines will now be theirs” –which is of course a blatant lie and in the end they will be much worse off.
-For those who can read between the lines: the whole concerted alienation of whites, the West, capitalism, is clearly geared towards something big; nationalisation is a likely purpose.

Even Trevor Manuel, who was always a decent sort, has clearly thrown in the towel, with his exorbitant car and his cynical comments upon being queried about this –he has also seen the writing on the wall. (And he knows even better than even the ANCYL what goes on behind the scenes)

Nationalization is the ultimate form of capitalism as it creates the ultimate monopoly.

Sorry socialists, but the truth is ironic isn't it?

Education, and good quality education (not what the ANCYL members have) is our way out of this situation. Nothing else will suffice.

Great idea, go for it! Kenneth Kaunda who I believe now resides in capitalist South Africa can be the Chief Advisor. He assisted in turning the Copperbelt in Zambia into a huge success story. You've got my vote.

This prick is not joking. When he says "we want the mines" he means exactly that. The operative word in that sentence being "WE"
Thats him and a couple other well placed individuals.