Where is SA’s own Obama?

where is sa's own obama?

well, since we'll never have a coloured president in the lifetime of anyone reading this... i suppose he's waiting for his parents to meet.

also, let's not forget about the fact that obama's father was foreign. do you honestly think south africans would accept the child of a foreigner as president? be real.

[both of these things forged obama's worldview, so they're quite relevant.]

well maybe we just don't have one, or never will. What is this Obama concept anyhow? Maybe the USA are yearning and waxing lyrical asking where their own Mandela might be?

"I have to study politics and war, so that my son can study mathematics and philosphy"

Touche Douche--nope, we aren't asking where our own Mandela might be. We don't need one--our countries are different enough that we don't covet your leaders, nor should you covet ours. Apples and oranges.

And since a good chunk of your country is dying because of Mandela and Mbeki's disastrous AIDS policies, again I'd say no, we're not looking to emulate you.

Obama is the same as Zuma both are chief ditherers for the same reason. Both are beholden to the Unions and left wing of their party, neither can move too fast for fear of breaking the left coalition and both were elected for their ability to use the media. Obama's poll numbers are plummeting as he tries to implement policies Americans don't want and can't afford. Zuma unfortunately is just not doing anything except making the right sounds. President Julie is the man to watch, he is our next Mugabe, charismatic, opinionated and wrong. Just what is admired in leaders for Africa.

Has there been a real Zulu hero since Chaka?

Obama's approval ratings have plummeted faster than Dubya's. He's all sizzle and no steak.

Chaka a hero?

Who to exactly?

The peoples he overrun and bred their women with his Impi for more cannon fodder (read spear practice perhaps?) or murdered (as in killed off as being superfluous?)

His own warriors he killed off by running them over cliffs perhaps? (the "soldiers" today can hardly walk - let alone run - except after they do a few hijackings perhaps)

Or perhaps the over 30 "maidens" (sic) who are not able to "snare" a "warrior" of her own ......

Or perhaps you would settle for a "droolious"? - - OK OK - so he is not too smart, almost passed a few exams and suffers a bit from foot in mouth disease - with a face that only a ..... well maybe not?

But then again I suppose you just can not have everything now can you?

The last thing we need is a Bush Lite Obummer in this country which is already overcrowded with racist right wing idiots who'd like nothing better to return to days of 5 million whites subjugating the rest of the 50 million people of this country.

Obama goes along with this same thinking as is evident from his and his administrations support of the dictators the US of A have put in place and keep in place across Latin America, Africa and Asia.

A small band of "elite" business people and US corporations rape, pillage, kill and plunder the resources aided and abetted by the the militarily installed and propped up governments of those nations.

Do we want an Obama? We've already got enough problems that he and his ilk have left us with thank you very much.

What we do need is an Evo Morales or a Victor Chavez with the courage to act on behalf of the majority of the people of this country.

Billy, aren't Chavez and Morales exactly what you are accusing Obama of???? No a lot worse. Be careful what you wish for!!!!! What we need is a strong, educated leader of this country. One that is not scared to appoint people on competence and not party loyalty. We need a leader that will unite and lead ALL South Africans and not just the cadres (all 4000 of them) that voted him in to be their puppet. And who cares what colour that leader is. There are millions of competent South Africans black, white, coloured, indian) that could do a better job than our current leader.

Hi guys and dolls, Some very good comments, even a few chuckles.touché douché ; you are correct, the world is looking for a Mandela type. Unfortunatley the liklihood of that has evaporated. Considering what is on the go at the moment, global this, global that, climate control, financial takeovers of world, WTO etc etc, we are likely to first see antichrist pop in for a visit. Just Truth , I could not have said it better, possibly a tad more complicated than that but absolutley on the right track.Jay Vincento , good point, who the hell cares anyway. Billy Hill ; Billy, I see you seem well read, you are absolutley spot on, both Hugo and Evo are men of the masses, and in fact began with all the correct ideals. Unfortunately the pressure for both of standing against ruthless multinationals and hence most of the western world is beginning to show. Ultimatley I am convinced they to will become exhausted with this fight and succumb to a final paycheck and retire somewhere rather obscure. louise doidge , Hi Lou, you are correct, even though more an idealist approach / comment than a real possibility. We are a far too fractured society with some real baggage. If Nelson had been out earlier we could have had a chance. Unfortunatley we have a group of boys and girls, like good elitest politicians, that give a flying f..k for anything but thier retirement and status, This is causing an even more fractuous society with the poor falling off the edge while the rest of ALL SA's hang on for dear life and watch the show. god help us all.

Rapule, I like your article but I do wonder why you - we? - must always assume that good leadership is indivisible from the male form. Why not consider Eileen Sirleaf Johnson or Angela Merkel, too? I wish we could talk about leadership in this country and not talk about tribes, sexes and races. Maybe then we'd get true leadership. Unfortunately, what we have is politicians. Frankly, I'd trust the Spanish Inquisitor before I trust any of this current crop.

I got one - this guy on facebook - Zak Mbhele. Extremely capable.

As long as we have chips on our shoulders no such person exists
in South Africa

Billy Hill I am not sure why you didn't put Robert Mugabe on your list. He has done exactly what Chavez and Morales have set out to achieve but he has achieved far more of his agenda than they have. He certainly is admired by Chavez "What about Mugabe? 'He is my friend. Have you met him?' I have met many of his victims, I say. 'We all make mistakes" Obviously Chavez didn't meet the 20 000 that Mugabe had murdered, but we all make mistakes.

Just Truth? Pfft! You really should consider a pseudonym change...howz about "Just Tired Lies". You regurgitate the same sh!t the main stream media feeds ya, which only serves the interests of corporate controlled governments like that of the US and Europe.

I guess you are enthralled by the fake "democracy" that the US parades, where all candidates are screened by their electoral college, then if approved, bought by corporate campaign funds and thereafter, with little exception, bound to carry out every whim of corporate America or whichever "special interest group" has offered the most substantial sum.

Apart from the 4 yearly presidential and congressional elections US citizens have no voice at all in any decision or policy making, yet corporates draft speeches for congress members and bills to be proposed and passed.

Take your head out of your ass and wipe your eyes. What is so wonderful about 50 million people in the US going hungry every day, 10's of millions of US families having their homes repossessed by the banks, 48 million Americans unable to afford health care...great nation huh! A truly great socio-economic-political system that has the interests of it's people at heart huh!

Billy Hill, feel free to take a refresher course on American civics at any time. The electoral college doesn't approve candidates; Obama would never have come out of a system like that. The electoral college is a constitutional relic that smaller states don't want to give up because it gives them disproportionate clout, but it doesn't actually "choose" the candidates. Whoever wins the state gets that state's electoral votes. That's *after* the election, not before.

Americans certainly do have a say more than every 4 years (or 2, really, which is how often we have congressional elections)--since each congressman has to answer to the constituents of his district, and each senator of his state, we have regular access to our congressmen. And they actually listen--the formula is that for every email or phone call they get on an issue, they figure 20 people feel the same way but didn't take the time to call or write. It absolutely makes a difference.

There are a lot of nuances regarding the drawing of districts, etc, but in general I think it's a system with much more accountability than the SA system, where you don't choose your own candidates, your party does; and the party in power has no real opposition, so they are not accountable in any substantial way. Your total lack of service delivery therefore doesn't surprise me.

Billy Hill perhaps you should stop reading back issues of Pravda. You obviously do not keep up with American politics or what is happening there. Probably relying on South African second hand news. I would suggest you find a good book or article on US electoral processes before making a fool of yourself. You also obviously have no idea of American trends and the influences on congress.

I am not sure if your high school debating boys find making schoolboy comments and childish sloganeering funny. What it does, is displays an emotional, irrational debating style. Your statistics are also without substance for although 48 million may be without health care that figure is much debated, if they go to a hospital they must be treated. Oh and would you include the millions who are illegally in the States or the millions who do not want health care.

Perhaps when you are capable of moving beyond sloganeering and student debate this could prove interesting.

Good point, Just Truth--hospitals cannot turn away people for treatment regardless of ability to pay. I'm all for reform because it's much more expensive to go to the emergency room for an ear infection or strep throat than it is to go to a primary care physician; but you're going to be treated. And poor children are covered by Medicaid; working class children are covered by CHIP (an expansion of Medicaid, in essence).

Americans are very divided on what they're willing to pay for health care reform, whether they want a public option, etc, which is why you see Congress so divided. Because, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, they actually have to answer to their constituents. Novel concept, I know.

Thanks Shannon, valuable comment. I would disagree on health care reform, as the long term effect is a another government department similar to the wonderful ANC model currently implemented in South Africa. Doctors who try their best as they are put through the hoops by bureaucrats and politicians. We have already seen the result of this in the millions of death due to HIV, because of the ANC's policy on ARV's.

Obviously dear Billy has not heard of the Tea Parties and the Town Hall meetings during the American summer. The phone calls that blocked congress on these issues and very frightened congressmen and women who see their poll numbers dive and try to tap dance around unpopular issues. Then again, it is so much easier to drink the kool aid than think.

The US constitution was written by the wealthy for the wealthy period.

Something like 70% of Americans want a public option health insurance system and what do they get? :

And although the final bill has yet to be crafted, there exists general agreements as to what the end version will look like. Americans will be forced to buy shoddy corporate insurance with no limit to the cost, no guarantee of quality, with large premiums and other tricks to further gouge consumers. If a public option emerges in the final bill — by no means a guarantee — it will be shrunken enough to insure very few people (2 percent of the U.S. population).

But it gets worse. How this health care "reform" will be paid for has implications that dwarf the above atrocities.

For example, the Democrats were determined to pass a health care bill that "will not add one cent to the deficit." And they have succeeded: the House and Senate health care bills both plan to reduce the deficit by over $100 billion. But a second-grader could do the math here: more service does not equal less cost — a truism that dominates the for-profit health care industry.

So how does the government plan to save billions of dollars as they "help" millions of people?

The two biggest cost saving schemes are the most damaging. The first is the enormous attack on Medicare. Since its inception, the corporate elite wanted this program struck down. Now they have their man for the job — a Republican could never get away with such obvious treachery.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cooke11272009.html

Great Demopublican this President Obummer.


Something like 65% of Americans want the illegal invasion and occupation of Afghanistan to end and what do they get? Yet another "surge", this time round another 34,000 troops bringing the total to something like 140,000 and that does not include the approximately 100,000 Blackwater, KBR and other contractor forces already there.

Today, Sunday November 29, there is an election in Honduras, supported by the great President Obummer, after the illegal removal of the Democratically elected President Zelaya on June 28 this year. There is no other government that has indicated it will accept the results but the US of A will, despite ongoing reports of human rights violations by the coup government, restrictions and censorship of the media ahead of the elections and a full on military state of emergency. This is about as ridiculous as regarding the recent Afghan elections as being "legitimate" when the whole planet (except it seems President Obummer), agree it was a beacon of corruption and election fraud.

The only thing your corrupt American government politicians are concerned about is getting re-elected come the next election road show and they don't need the voters for that because the corporates will fund the election campaigns and the good little voting sheeple will go the way the corporate media tells them.

You apologists for the most brutal corrupt nation in history will find you don't get very here in Africa. We don't want your military bases and we don't want your gunpoint democracy. Somehow you just don't take the hint and get the f out of here though do? Too much booty that beckons your greedy asses.

Ahhh - Billy Hill - and so you show your true colours?

OK, Billy, the point where you cite Counterpoint as an actual credible source is where I decide to abide by the old canard about never engaging in a match of wits with an unarmed man. What are your other sources, Drudge Report? Crazy Uncle Jimmy blogging in the basement in his underwear? (Maybe you *are* crazy Uncle Jimmy in the basement...?)

You don't have any real arguments, just seething hatred of success. That's OK, Americans are used to that. The big dog on the block is always going to draw hatred from small-minded people. We tune you out.

A couple of quick points though: in a poll this week of Democrats, the ones most likely to support health care reform, the public option ranked seventh on their list of priorities. SEVENTH. So yeah, we widely support it. Whatever.

"Most brutal corrupt nation in history"--more hyperbole. We stayed out of the scramble for land in Africa--no colonies. And of course African nations are a shining beacon of hope to the world in their governance. ;) But I think my favorite part is where you say we "don't get very far here in Africa." I suppose that's why your best scholars scramble to be at our universities? (I'm at Harvard. Can't tell you how many of the African students are thrilled to be there and hoping not to go back.) Why we have to put on a cap on immigrants from your continent? Why our president gets treated like a rock star there (to our chagrin, as we would like him to pay attention to our issues, not be a global icon)? Why I can go there and find Starbucks, Coke, Levi's jeans, Nike running shoes, MAC makeup, Apple computers, iPhones, ad infinitum?

Yeah, you hate us. (rolls eyes) Your hatred sounds like a lot like jealousy. I might remind you that people from all over the world still run *to* us, not *from* us. No brain drain like you are experiencing.

I like a good debate, but you're just a wild-eyed ranter. At this point I'm more interested in the Harvard-Yale score.

Oh, and a quick aside: we are certainly aware of the over-influence of corporate interests in electoral campaigns. I hope we'll see that change and there are some grassroots movements afoot to go to public funding of campaigns. But for those like Billy who would have you believe corporations are pulling all the strings and everyone else goes along like mindless marionettes, may I point out: a) Obama won, and raised a huge chunk of his money, on small individual donations through the internet, a tactic Howard Dean started and which he perfected; b) corporations preferred Hillary to Obama and yet he came out ahead anyway; and c) corporations actually hate him because he is raising their taxes--as someone whose sister has married into the Tyco fortune, let me tell you how many cocktail parties, including this past Thanksgiving weekend, I have spent with CEOs who loathe him and voted the other way.

At the end of the day, the voters still decide. Getting them to care is another issue--we're lucky if we get 50% turnout in an election. People just take it for granted. Changing that would probably be the biggest step towards reducing corporate power in politics.

Shannon and Sue you two are total dogs. You don't even have an idea who Alexander Cockburn, Patrick Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair are, yet you attempt to discredit them. Pathetic really. You stoop to the lowest possible denominator in rabid right wing tactics.

You clearly have no idea of the true events of all of the US invasions and occupations across Latin America, Africa or South East Asia. I guess you figure the Cambodian people had it coming to them too, with the most intense bombing ever and the US supported Pol Pot.

If anybody has shown their true colors, it's you two dumb asses.

Oh, Billy, get over yourself. Of course I know Cockburn et al. That's why I think their newsletter is silly. (And you're ridiculous for paying $30 a month for it.) Cockburn writes for the Nation--I'll read him there where he has decent editors; I don't need his newsletter. He's Scottish, by the way, though now a US citizen (see previous post about people running *to* us rather than *from* us). Interesting that you are so enthralled by Anglo writers? Little bit of Anglophilia happening for ya?

You seem to be awfully enamored of America...what's that about?

There are plenty of people I'll debate American policy with, but not the frothing-at-the-mouth, I-can-barely-contain-my-envy folks like you. And I have a plane to catch.

This debate between Shannon and Billy started out well then degraded into personal attacks. Pity. You both have things to say.
The whole world seems to be wondering 'where their Obama is?' Why? I agree with the 'sizzle no steak' comment. He is talk little action. Will they ever get out of Iraq as promised?
South Africa has good leaders. They just need to show themselves.

I have great hope for Mr Obama as one of the greatest US presidents ever - he has courage, integrity and values. I have to say that Mr Hill's comment that the US is "the most brutal corrupt nation in history " is simply ludicrous. The US has made many mistakes especially in its foreign policy but as Shannon points out it is a nation of winners, and people are flocking there to make their lives a success. The US generates tremendous envy across the globe for exactly that reason. And even the poor and vulnerable in the US would rather be there than in the nations they have fled from, knowing that the US remains the land of opportunity where those who have guts and talent can succeed. It is by no means perfect, but remains the last best hope of mankind. And this doesn't make one right wing, simply a believer in individual liberty and freedom.

@Billy Hill, you should see the number of Africans in the US with college degrees working as security guards and taxi drivers. You should hear the stories that they are telling about Africa and its leaders. For example, tribalism, religious discrimination, nepotism, and not being in the ruling party can prevent one from getting employment in Africa regardless of one education. This is why the best brains in Africa have left Africa to come to North America. Most of these people are never going to go back to Africa except to bury their parents. By the way, most of these corrupted leaders do not want them to come back to Africa because they are viewed as a threat to the government.

Sterling, I agree and I think it's to the great detriment of Africa. My godson is Congolese and 13 years old; his family left when the ethnic violence in Rwanda spilled over into Congo (they are Tutsi). His dad was a degreed professional there; after 10 years here, he has worked his way into a pretty good job. He says he never intends to go back except to visit family. His seven kids all consider themselves American and are thriving. Phen (my godson) will be attending a boarding school near Princeton for high school; three of the younger children are in private school on scholarship. They are precisely the kind of talent Africa needs and precisely the kind they are losing. Those kids are American, they're never going back. Phen teases me when I go, because he tells me Africa is a place people want to get away from, not get away *to*. He's a great loss to Africa and a great addition to the US. And there are tens of thousands like him.

"Shannon and Sue you two are total dogs." Wow Billy that is deep. What stunning arguments you put forward. Obviously this is supposed to cower the ladies with your fine wit.You speak of the greed of the "elite" but then moan because of the cost of health care reform. What you also fail to mention is the extra tax that is placed on the wealthier segment of the community to pay for this debacle. I haven't noticed an upsurge of illegal immigration to the utopias in South America. Do you think that they are just well kept secrets hidden from Africans who normally flee to the US or Europe?

Hehehe You dorks represent the colonial/empire thinking of the past. You're history with that mindset. It won't be tolerated here and it won't be tolerated anywhere else either. There will be a greater emphasis on sharing the wealth of nations more equitably whether pumpkin heads like you like it or not.

Your stand places you as enemies of the oppressed and exploited people everywhere on this planet. I've got no problem with seeing you as such.

Billy Hill: Thought you would have donated your pc, car, everything else to your socialist ideals.

Our politicians are too corrupt to even consider a socialist agenda. It seems to be tolerated.

But lets not blame the west for Africa's mistakes.

Our ability to create conditions for a good post-Zuma leader should be measured by our seriousness in regarding Malema as a budding leader.

If you look at other "1st world" countries there are 2 main parties to choose from at each election. In the USA you have Democrats and Republicans. In the UK they have 3, Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats. Here in SA we had so many parties vying for the scraps from the ANC's table it's depressing.

Helen Zille, now has a once in a life time opportunity in the Western Cape. If she and her colleagues can turn the Western Cape into SA's own version of a utopia, then the DA have a fighting chance come the next elections. The power of being able to actually "SHOW" results vs standing up on the podium and paying "lip service" to a particular promise is hard to deny......!

Once the ANC are forced to take their opposition seriously as a threat and only then, will we see them having to be accountable for their actions and delivery of their portfolios. Only then will a Barack Obama or Nelson Mandela step forward from the ranks of the ANC. That and the people's voice must be heard over and above even Julius Malema's continual monologue.

The government of any country is answerable to it's populace! We as South Africans sit idly by while politicians in power covert luxury cars and 5 star hotels while failing in their duties. Yet we do nothing! We do nothing except from lamenting how this (Could be great) Country of ours is wasting it's potential.

At some point we have to shout out and shout with one voice, "We have had enough!"

@Jon Low and Jay Vincento. Who's Chaka? The greatest Zulu Kings name was King Shaka, ka Senzangakhona, ka Jama. Stop commenting about things you don't know. Maybe you must focus on King George and the rest of your kings that I never commented about as I really don't care about them. I agree with the author, opposition is too weak. To those lunatics who think Black people would vote for DA just to decrease the ANC majority, you are wrong. Black people will when time is right create their own Black opposition. @Ursa Negro, Obama is Black. The only 2 countries in the world where there is a Coloured phenomenon are South Africa and Egypt. The Coloured concept comes from the racists who wanted to divide Black people. As for the rest of the world, you are either Black or White and in America Obama is Black.

Zuma is surely bad enough, we definitely do not need an Obama!

Will someone please tell me honestly why this adoration of Obama persists - the guy has no courage and will never lead the Americans or anyone else anywhere except to where they don't want to go!

Mark Robertson, ask the people of Guatemala or Haiti (to name just two nations the 50 plus which have suffered US "foreign interventions" of the US since WWII), just how much "individual liberty and freedom" they have now.

Sinudeity, I do that regularly, giving away PC's and even perfectly good cars, if I think they are going to be well used and make a difference to the lives of people. I also regularly support the truly humbled poor whites who have had to swallow their white pride and are now parking attendants in the town nearby where I live.

Sorry pal, America has many Obamas but we only have Malemas. That is why America is where it is and we are were we are!!!!! That is why we hate Americans becuase they are just too far ahead of us.

Louise, you choose to be blind to the atrocious behavior of the US globally. If that is what makes your goat giggle then good, but really you expose what can only be described as your own total idiocy with statements like the above.

Billy who says so? You? Amazing how you are quick to point fingers at the US but let the s....t hit the fan everybody wants the Americans to come to their defence. The Americans were there to help liberate the Germans from Hitler, Europe from Communism. Recently they were there to help Bosnians that were being massacred by the Serbs. They were there to save the Kosovans.They liberated Kuwait from Saddam. They were there to end the bloodshed in Rwanda after the rest of Africa stood by with their mouths wide open. The list is endless. Whenever war breaks out anywhere the first question asked is "where are the americans". Why????????? Africa are not in a position to question the Americans until they clean up their own filthy house. And as for you Billy if you don't like my statement (which I think is fact), go and smoke a pipe in a corner. Your arrogance is almost as unbelievable as your ignorance!!!!!!!! And by the way I'm no American apologist and in fact I don't like Obama but that doesn't mean I don't admire him as a leader and squirm at our equivalent i.e. Malema!!!!

I hate it when people argue in a one-sided manner as Shannon Wright and Louise Doige do where America is always right/good and Africa/South Africa is all bad.

We do admit that we in RSA have a leadership void through Mbeki and now Zuma but do you admit to USA mistakes? You taint the image of Mandela by insinuating that he was a bad leader because of his slow reaction on HIV/Aids - that was one of his few mistakes. That does not make him all bad; in-fact you will travel far before finding a better leader than that (this includes Obama, Lincoln etc.)!

The USA has made many mistakes - just think of George W. Bush; what images come to mind? The global credit crisis is probably the most recent of your follies that has cost the world dearly. How many lives have been lost/ruined through your greed?

The author of the article asks the valid question of leadership in RSA and uses Obama because he is contemporary. Perhaps he should put it in the African context and ask where the next Mandela, Nkrumah, etc. will come from for RSA. Perhaps that question will exclude “better than thou” responses and allow us (S. Africans or those with Africa’s interests at heart) to discuss his question fully. Maybe what might emerge is that we need to find a way (opposition?) to sharpen the ANC so that they may not shove imbeciles like Malema down our throats but instead present the more cerebral Lindiwe Sisulu’s/Cyril Ramaphosa’s, through fear of being voted out of power.

Geoff, I hate it when you accuse others of one thing (argue in a one sided manner) and then go and do exactly the same!!!!!!! We are utilising our democratic right to defend anything we feel fit. I have never said America is perfect. I was replying to that Billy boy's comments as is my right!!!! I have also said that we don't have credible leaders in SA and by that I meant at this time!!! I have never slated Mandela and even if I did, it is my right so who are you to tell me or anybody else otherwise. So, what you are saying is that it is OK to throw stones at America from Africa but nobody in Africa can defend them? Get a life! I am no American bigot and have no beef either for or against them but I hate it when people like you attack America as if they are the only evil in this world. Practice what you preach dear Geoff!!!!

May I venture that Lindiwe Sisulu may be our next Obama? She has shown superb leadership as minister of defence, is strong, principled and unafraid to speak her mind. She is loyal to the nation as well as the party, which may be the single key reason why she has the 'Obama' quality - integrity.

Lindiwe Sisulu???????? She was responsible for the mess that is the Gateway Project in Cape Town. She is also resposible for blowing 22 million on a play about housing delivery!!!!!! Nah! she talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk. Then again she is far better than we have now but still a "no" from me!!!!!

Geoff, I agree the good/bad dichotomy is unhelpful and am sorry to have perpetuated it. I do think you have a bit of a leadership vaccuum now but we had one for the past 8 years. And I do think, especially with World AIDS Day tomorrow, that it is legitimate to criticize Mandela (who was a statesman more than a governor, which is fine, but makes comparisons with Obama/Lincoln et al useless) and Mbeki for their lack of attention to AIDS when it means it actually jeopardizes the well-being of your nation--the cost of it is going to wreck you.

My response was more to the blame-all-the-world's-ills-on-America meme that Billy was pushing. We've had some awful, awful foreign policy. Sometimes our actions also have consequences we didn't intend, in the "when America sneezes the world catches a cold" kind of way. Like any empire, our legacy will be mixed, although I happen to think we've been one of the more humane ones. And our time is probably drawing to a close, which will be good for us: it's not good for the soul to be dominant for too long, and the American spirit will be healthier when we are one among many. If the 20th century was the American century, I'm betting the 21st will be China's.

But I react strongly against the idea that *all* we are is a bully and a strongarm. We have a constitution that has been an inspiration around the world. Your anti-apartheid movement drew from our civil rights movement; Boesak carefully studied the speeches of Martin Luther King Jr. When the Asian tsunami hit in 2004, we were ridiculed for sending an aircraft carrier. What most people apparently didn't understand is that an aircraft carrier can stay in the water, but has landing strips to distribute goods; it has generators that can power several city blocks; it can produce almost a million gallons of freshwater out of saltwater; it has 4 hospitals onboard and 3 cafeterias that can feed several thousand people a day. And we have 12 of them. Whenever there is a natural disaster or a humanitarian crisis, we are called upon and we usually go. We would like it if, on occasion, that were acknowledged.

When it's not, it makes us much harder to admit our faults (which we do talk about extensively amongst ourselves). It also produces the kind of jingoism that says "Fine--hate us. Boycott us, even. I guess that means you'll be giving back that computer you're writing on and the internet you have access to since we invented those. You won't be traveling by airplane, which we invented in 1902, or by automobile since we invented its mass production by assembly line. Fortunately that means you won't need traffic lights, because we invented that too. The light bulb is ours, too. I guess you'll eat fresh food because we invented refrigeration. You'll want to get rid of your cell phone (land line too) and radio. Don't drink Coke, use a disposable razor, or turn on the air conditioning--all ours. And a lot of those pesky vaccines you may have gotten--from influenza to polio to hep B to the HPV vaccine that could prevent your daughter getting cervical cancer--well, that's all American hegemony too so we understand if you want to give them back as well."

You can see why we might get a wee bit testy. We're not all good, but neither are we all bad.

Shannon I couldn't agree more. Not all South Africans hate America. Just a misguided few and our government from time to time. But I'm sure you've all (Americans) noted how we, here in Africa, slate you one minute and then go with our begging bowl the next. I wish the Americans could for once send them packing empty handed. But then again these EVIL Americans are too kind for their own liking. Always wanting to help. Unfortunately there are many ungrateful people just waiting to bite that hand off. God Bless America!!!!!!

You people should stop blaming Zuma ,Mandela, Mbeki, Obama and others for the rapid increase of AIDS/HIV. I think that we should learn to be responsable for our health. Our leaders have told us that prevention is better than cure. Our leaders have other things to do. We have to meet them halfway.

Americans should stop thinking that they are the only vaccine to all sickness in the world. I currently live in Japan and I didn't know that America was depending on Japan finacially all these years. Now the Japanese are kicking them our of their pockets and they are busying begging the Jap's. So you see they should say "WHEN JAPAN SNEEZES THE AMERICAN CATCHES A COLD". We all depend on each other.

Rapule

Your last comments hit home for me.

Democracy in many ways (as i see it) is more about the quality of opposition than about the ruling elite.

Unfortunately, in SA, opposition is seen as being anti the country instead of integral to strong governance.

Putting party politics aside, ironically, SA would be better served by a weaker ANC and stronger opposition.

Shannon Wright - Ummmm, actually the science and most of the scientists that made most if not all of those inventions possible came from Europe. Just before you burst with that good old American pride.

And I guess the reason the rest of the world dislikes the USA is that hitting a kid with a big stick and then giving him a coke does not buy his trust. The US have been aggressively pushing their influence across the globe, fomenting regime change where and when they like. Its not your right to do so, especially when you constantly break international laws and invent pretexts and then sell them to your indoctrinated, censored electorate.

There is a lot that is right about the USA and there is a lot that isn't. The biggest problem is that those caught inside the machine drunk on its own power do not see that which is not right. Why are you in Iraq and Afghanistan? Why are you trying to erect missile systems in Poland and Ukraine? Why did you support Georgia in a war that they started? Why did you bomb Serbia, remove Kosovo from them and then build Eastern and Central Europe's biggest military base there? Why did you invade Nicaragua? Why are you threatening to bomb Iran? Can you not see that to an Iranian you are a mad Christian fundamentalist nation that is not talking about aggression but actively involved in it? I would also try to develop nukes to protect myself in their shoes.

You undo all the good, and there is a lot of that, by being a bully. Back off. Leave the world alone. We would prefer no aircraft carriers and peace than US fomented revolution across the globe and a floating helping hand from time to time. You are drunk on your own power, religion and ideology.

And while you are about it, could you curb the sickest and most irresponsible consumer binge in global history that is effing up our planet? Sign up in Copenhagen please, you are the last to do so. All the war at the end of the day is to keep that little party going. Party responsibly like the global power you think you are and leave us to do the same. You might be surprised what happens.

Hillbilly, your parents were related right? Happens to most rednecks. I don't side with any country, what I like about Obama is he represents honesty and integrity, those are two characteristics I seldom find in leaders in the world, and I don't think Zuma comes close. Madela did represent it, and it showed because the country was almost as one, but has been getting more divided since we do not have leaders that can lead by example, Zuma only makes noises, I don't see him behaving with any integrity at all!!

"Ironically, it is only when the opposition parties get their act together that the ruling party will be forced to unleash its Obamas -- who will neither think for us nor be constrained by internal party dynamics. "

Actually Obama is The Master Deception of all time...Zuma is a begginer in this tyranny of evil being of lesser Military Significance compared to Obama's practical influence...it's sad that any human would want an "Obama like" monster in thier hood....but then again...death and life in each hand, ask for either and I shall give you as much of whichever...lol...I guess the OP (original poster) still has much reading to do concerning the warmongering via finacial & military means executed so skillfully by those who placed our actor/puppet Obama on the chair for all to glorify....

No Obama ever in South Africa plaese...He can give SA the stick from the USA....lol

Grant, those inventions were all in America. Feel free to double-check. Some of the scientists certainly had European backgrounds, because for a long time people with ingenuity who couldn't do the work they wanted to in their own country have been coming to the US. Blame Europe for that, not us for giving people who are smart and work hard a venue for maximizing that. And most of those scientists were native-born, though they may have been first or second generation immigrants.

I'd be more than happy to withdraw from the world and be isolationist but people bitch and moan when we've done that, too. Get over yourself.

I would think with a name like "Grant Walliser" you wouldn't really be in a position to throw stones. Europe's history is hardly pretty.

By the way, the first ARV's were also a product of American research. And your president has just come, hat in hand, asking us for $120 million. You constantly lobby our pharmaceutical companies for deep discounts on these drugs. But you're right, we should totally back off and mind our own business. What's it to us if Africa goes up in flames?

No disagreement here on global warming, although I hardly think Copenhagen will solve it. And quit blaming things on our religion: less than a quarter of Americans identify as the evangelicals you so vilify. We're everything under the sun.

Ms Wright, you are absolutely correct that all those inventions were from the US not Europe. Your facts have been presented convincingly. The fascinating thing for me is comparing the achievements of the US with the former Soviet Union, which also had great potential and a first class education system. Unfortunately it also had the most tyrannical system the world has ever seen, rivalling the Nazis in many ways, and worse in some. Soviet foreign policy also wasn't the greatest. The US needs to be more even handed in the Middle East and focus more on human rights in some of its allies - Saudi Arabia for instance.

South Africa has many Obama's that we will never get to see because we are not a meritocracy. All South Africa's Obama's will end up in Canada or UK or US because cronyism is still rife. The only way we can hope to discover these talents and hold onto them inside SA is by facilitating a system that rewards hard work and accomplishment.

@Billy Hill, you should have seen how papa Doc treated the people in Haiti and how many people that he killed. When the people in Haiti were being eaten by the sharks, it was the US that sent boats to fish them out of the water. Papa Doc ran Haiti the same way many African countries are being run today. The people are kept ignorant,very poor and the ruling elite stealing all of the money. There is a Fort Demanche in Haiti that two hundred and fifty thousandth people died under papa Doc rule. This man ruled that country with Voodoo and the people were so ignorant that they though he had super natural power.

How to stop an anti American rally taking place in a foreign country:
Step one: Erect a mobile kiosk.
Step two: Display sign reading " American citizenship available here "
Step three: Run like hell.
Step four: End of rally.

Shannon - I said science, not invention. Ernest Rutherford, the NEW ZEALANDER who discovered the electron that makes all electronics and the Internet possible was not from the USA but of BRITISH parentage. The Internet was developed by a BRIT at CERN in SWITZERLAND. Tim Berners-Lee can't remotely claim to be American. Cell phones by contrast have a complex history accredited to CANADIAN inventor Reginald Fessenden's first working model even though US Bell labs patented the concept earlier. They were first used commercially by the SWEDES in the form of car phones and the market was created and is dominated by the FINNS. The first mobile network as we know them today was in JAPAN. Some humility please. The Romans had ice-based refrigeration long before America did. John Pemberton's first Coke recipe was copied from a French Coca wine. In fact he called it 'Pemberton's FRENCH wine coca'. The science that made modern technology possible was developed mostly by Brits, Germans, Swiss, French and other Western, Eastern European and Russian scientists. I take nothing away from America in their amazing Engineering and scientific exploits after the fact but if you think that America brought us the modern world, you are incorrect. Europe did, you created a fertile environment for their scientists simply because you happen not to have been destroyed during WW2 like the rest of Europe. Due to your fortunate geography you offered wealth and stability at a time when Europe could not and the rest is history. Good for you. Very entrepreneurial. But some humility, please. You can, btw, add the atomic bomb by Oppenheimer to that list of yours (although you could throw bits of that back to Europe if you are feeling global), and many other horrible, illegally-used machines of war, from agent orange to bunker busting bombs and nuclear warheads that you use at will against people with little or no hope of fighting back. You do not use these things against countries that can fight back, only the helpless ones.

You have given the good and the bad. Your bad taints your good. The world needs stability before they need iPhones, they need peace without proxy wars before they need production line cars (Ford can also be attributed with starting the production line that mass produces goods that then required the marketing approach to sell what you can produce and basically created the consumer binge culture that you fed the world and is now engulfing us and destroying the planet. He was AMERICAN). Your drug companies lost no time in getting stuck in here to test their ARV's that they could not test at home on human test subjects. Thats why they were really here. Africa gave your drug companies the US and EU markets tested on Africans. Big bucks. If you think it was benevolent business to help the poor Africans you have no idea how this works at all. And Obama has a long way to go before he actually deserves the Nobel Peace Prize he won. He talks big. Big hat, no cattle so far. He is sending more troops to Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay is still operational and the US is busy instigating a war in Iran and revolution in Central Europe. All under his watch. What peace has Obama been involved in exactly? Mandela by contrast earned his peace prize by actually initiating peace in a country that had little hope of ever seeing it. Some humility please.

And whether it was in gfact Marconi the ITALIAN or Tesla, the SERB that invented the radio, neither of them were AMERICAN.

Tesla was in America when he invented the radio. Marconi used 17 of his patents.

I'm not arguing that Americans are inherently more intelligent, Grant; that would be a eugenics argument. I'm saying our culture prizes innovation and invention, and so people have traditionally flocked here to do that kind of work. I think it's awesome that Tesla was from Serbia (he became an American citizen, by the way, so yes, he was AMERICAN. We let people become citizens through other routes than being born here). Europe treats people from that region like crap; SA isn't exactly welcoming of foreigners either; we have built our nation on immigration.

So if you're going to argue Tesla wasn't American because he wasn't born here, you're essentially arguing for an ethnicity-based nationalism. I'm sure you'd be very happy in France or Germany. But that's not the American ethos.

Signed,
A proudly Native American-German-Scottish-English-Irish-Dutch-Czechoslavakian mutt whose ancestors started coming over in 1620 and trickled in through 1880, and who is entirely American

Actually, Obama is the world's answer to Mbeki. Question is, is he up for the challenge?

Grant--no time to respond, and the moderation on here has been wonky as yesterday two of your posts weren't up. But quickly: Obama didn't nominate himself for the NPP, and if Europe thought they could somehow gently bully him into changing his policy by awarding it and then putting pressure on him to "earn" it, they were wrong, as they so often are. I fully agree he didn't deserve it, but I think it's the NPP committee that looks foolish, not Obama. He said all during the campaign that Afghanistan was the "right war" and Iraq was a distraction from it, for anyone who was listening. Gitmo is an embarrassment, but it isn't closed because many of the prisoners' countries refuse to take them back. Perhaps you'd like to offer yours. That thing is a clusterf*ck and there's no defending it, and I've opposed it since it's inception, but I think Obama was sincere in his intent to close it until he got in and realized it wasn't as easy as he'd thought.

Argh. Grant, you draw me in, so another quick answer or I'll be late:

Yes, Ford invented mass production on an assembly line, a technique that has made goods and services affordable to people who hitherto could never have afforded them. It put things that had been accessible only to the very rich within the reach of the middle- and working-classes. That's still an achievement I'll applaud.

As for the consumer culture we supposedly export: has the rest of the world really so little agency, Grant? So little resistance? You absorb that culture because you want to. Businesses are in the business of making money. If Starbucks, Levis, McDonalds et al didn't make a profit in other countries, they wouldn't be there. People like those goods and they buy them. Maybe your own culture needs transforming.

Many of the inventions I mentioned were pre-WW2, but even those post: yup, we do an excellent job of taking what's sitting in a lab and turing it to something useful.

Berners-Lee created the world-wide web, which is not the same as the internet, created by Americans in response to Sputnik between the 50s and the 70s.

The cell phone was invented by Martin Cooper of Motorola in 1973 and the technology for it was developed earlier. I think it's awesome that Swedes, Finns and Japanese are all significant parts of the industry. Once again, our innovation provides jobs and improvements upon the originals all around the world.

Refrigeration as it is used today is still an American invention. The Romans were great, no doubt. But you're not using their method in your kitchen, are you?

As for ARVs, they have saved millions of lives and turned HIV in the West from a death sentence into a disease like diabetes that people can live with. And Africa is begging for them, usually at steeply reduced prices. Funny how JZ just came hat in hand asking for an additional R1 billion, and we gave it.

I'm so sick of this America-is-the-source-of-the-world's-ills meme. No one's hands are clean. How about this: when you have the moral high ground by not accepting any American aid or having any American companies working in your country providing jobs, then you can criticize. Until then, to parapharase Adam Sandler, you can take a nice cold drink of shutthehellup.

I don't take away from Europe's great history of science; obviously we stand on its shoulders.

Nice posts and lively debate.
So Shannon tell me why is it that the Germans have built the best motor cars in the world over the last 4-5 decades and Americans- the so called inventors of the motor car have still not quite mastered the art of motor vehicle design?
By the way the first Satellite in space was "Sputnik" and we always used to say look here the Russians got the better Germans!
NASA was basically founded on the know how transfers from Peenemunde. More than 6 decades after WW II Germany is again the most innovative and economically strongest Nation in Europe.(Export Nation No.1) And that's where a lot of America's intellectual seed capital came from after WW II. Admittetly the Marshall plan played a significant part in Germany's recovery,but the German People did the rest. I do not believe that a Marshall plan in Africa would have brought anywhere near the same results and we have plenty examples in Africa to confirm this.

Sorry I strayed off the subject, but South Africa's Obama has not yet been born, because as long as the ANC rules this country almost unopposed, the leaders will always be chosen by the party congress and not by the voters. This is the reason why SA has a semi educated populist as President. I predict a similar scenario as in the rest of Africa where the totally unsuitable western democratic process entrenches an African elite by default who will resort to extreme measures to retain power at any price and at the same time regard access to the public purse as their god given right. An African Obama would therefore have a very short life span comparaable to an honest Chicago Police Chief in 1920.