Schabir Shaik's parole paradise

Shaiks is spitting on South Africa. Him and all those getting away with armsdeal corruption.

George Orwell was right on the money.... some Animals are more equal than other Animals.....

Or is the real reason somewhat less sinister?

Could it be that the parole service is just one huge, out of control mess like so many institutions out government has managed to FUBAR?

Here we go again! Yet another front page article devoted to MEANINGLESS SENSATIONALISM of a parolee who will most likely never see the inside of a prison again! As I mentioned before these sensationalist distractions turn our esteemed M&G reporters into mere paparazzi, lowers the standard of reporting and does our democracy a huge disservice by not reporting on the things that really matter. This DISTRACTION simply feeds the political bickering that the DA and their cohorts in their media salivate over, not realizing that they are unconsciously engineering their own demise by not focussing on the REAL issues that really matter to the majority of SAns who struggle daily with overcoming our legacy of apartheid in the face of a vicious worldwide recession.

Dave Harris: Here we go again! Dave defending corruption. Oh, and he used the apartheid card.

Dave, this is a real issue. If we let politicians get away with corruption, they will simply do it again.

I am failing to see the relationship between the release of Shaik and release of De kok. if Shaik is released, what will be the significance of releasing Dekok ? If this will be done as trade-off who will benefit from the release of De kok or it will be just be a way of silencing a particular group of prople ? If that is the case then I give up......

Knowingly assisting someone to break the law is a crime. This goes for the owner of the lodge, who must have known that Shaik was on parole (it was public knowledge), and in violation of his parole conditions. The guise of confidentiality for the sake profit is no excuse for breaking the law.

Oh, its Sinudiety, our resident racist troll again....I see you're busy spraying your toilet graffiti all of M&G blogs...LOL.

Can we for a change stop reporting on non beneficial topics,MG reporters if you are interested in what shake is wearing today and will be wearing 2moro then the rest of SA is not.


Please do report on issues that are worth our internet time and money.

More gobbledegook journalism from the once esteemd M&G.
It even includes some free advertising for the said game lodge without missing a beat.

@Ntlahla Mfingwana. I share your sentiments. Each case should be treated independently and on their own merits. There should be absolutely no connection between the two cases. Or is it perhaps just media hype and speculation.

Personally I think De Kock, Derby-Lewis and others should stay in prison for their crimes against South African society.

Schabir Shaik should never have been released. There is nothing medically wrong with him. It was all a big sham. It was just political expediency and just proves the point that corruption is tolerated amongst the political elite of the country.

His day will come!

Dave Harris, calling the one who petitions for townships a troll would be an insult .......... to trolls.

Dave Harris: Indeed Dave, and I will increase my efforts in 2010.

Aluta Continua :)

Its relevant because it shows the absolute contempt the anc has for the very people that voted it in.
Btw moxter – the context of Sinu’s comments re: townships was very clear, how you and kitty kat got that wrong is beyond me, but to then celebrate your misunderstanding with such glee is almost more baffling. I assume you subscribe to the same ‘read without comprehending’ school of thought as the humourless harris.

The only thing that caught my attention from this article was the Thanda Private Game Reserve.

“1 000 square metres of sheer unadulterated luxury. It is equipped with a private boma, library, cellar, business room with internet connectivity, games room, heated swimming pool and a magnificent viewing deck that looks out over a water hole.”

My leave starts today, I might as well book myself in.

@Dave Harris

Your comments can be summed up by saying that you believe this is not an important issue.

In this you're incorrect for the following reason:
The rule of law is the principle on which South Africa (like all democratic governments of the world) operates. It defines how we live our lives, it is the source of our confidence in government to govern our country because we believe in the principles of conduct defined by the law, and that adherence to these principles makes for a safe and productive environment in which to live, work and raise families, and above all we expect that ALL citizens (including those in government) are subject to the law in equal measure to each other.

The problem with Shaik's parole is that he is arguably receiving preferential treatment in having received medical parole in the first place (he is clearly not in the final stages of a terminal illness), and having violated his parole conditions he is slapped gently on the wrist.

This indicates that he is not being treated as equal before the law. He has political power, whether through connections or through his perceived hold over Zuma's freedom (he has the power to implicate him in arms deal corruption), and is using this to elevate himself above the law.

What this means is that political power trumps the law in South Africa - the ANC is far more powerful than any political party should be, and South Africa is not the democracy its citizens wanted. The government simply has too much power, and there is only one way for a situation like that to end.

That, Dave, is why you should be very concerned about Shaik's parole - not necessarily because of the fact, but because of the principles indicated by the fact.

If 'apartheid' apologist Cliff Saunders can support a pardon for Shaik, the silence from the ANC is shocking; not one MP or official can muster up the courage to even obliquely support him. Yet, when he was the blue-eyed boy, they all (even the media) lined up just to meet him!

Hypocrisy?

Preferential/selective prosecution, justice and conviction not a problem; selective pardon is?

Haha...if only Shaik was driving a BMX X6 (as you state in the article) then we may all be relieved!

Well spotted Daniel.....BMX X6, that's MG for you.

I didn't even read the article. Thing is i will never know the truth about this and why it happened.

What is a BMX X6? Is Shaik riding a bicycle now?

Vic, it is not the first time M&G made a blatant error re: the BMX X6. It happened in previous article to some time back. Either the M&G journo's are Copy&Paste happy or they're just down right lazy or both. Too busy polishing up on their paparazzi skills one supposes.
Needless to say, this story is nothing but spectacular sensationalism.

@Michael, BMX X6 is as a result of M&G innovation, they have developed a new BMX for the next olympics. Aprently they gave one to Shaik to take it for a trial ride, and unfortunately he got caught....lol. Be on the look out for it in your nearest cycle shop

@ 'Dave Harris' - be careful that the subordination of the rule of law doesn't bite you one day, whoever you may be.

I dont see how this is a matter of concern restricted to the "DA and their cohorts". If the rule of law is not a real issue then i dont know what is.
The Shaik matter is an insult to our democracy and this is not and will never be an isolated incident. It is symptomatic of the rot that is gripping our democracy and just shows the complete moral breakdown and disregard for constitutional values that characterizes this and other administrations.
This is where the issue of education comes in. It is clear that current administration benefits from the extent of illiteracy in the republic. There is no willingness or ability to solve it because how else will they be voted back into power? Their maintaining power is highly dependent on maintaining the level of ignorance and illiteracy in the electorate. I mean how stupid do they really think we are?

Why are we all so surprised that Shabir has cocked his snoot at the correctional services system and was not terminal? Trust me, I have had 3 major cardiac events, and hypertension is not the stuff of deathbeds.

Let's be frank here, Jacob Zuma should also be in gaol, but prevailing circumstances have dicated otherwise. Is it fair then that only one culprit is incarcerated?

How about the corrupt doctors who participated in this scam? Shouldn't they have their licences revoked?

Our President will more than likely pardon Shabir (as well as De Kock in order to deflect the anger of Shabir's pardon).

Am I the only one who thinks that this whole thing including the pardon has been pre-planned?

The principle of upholding the law should not be viewed as racism and must be made to prevail over political power, otherwise it is the start of a slippery slope (we're already on the edge of the slope) which will result in innocent people becoming the victims of political abuse through the misuse of the police, the judicial system and the defence force (just look north).

There is a relationship between the stories M&G regard as 'newsworthy' and the articles we view and comment on. We give them feedback and they give us more of the same.

We can change that by ignoring the stories with the names that hook us to read the article. We could also use their tipp-off link on the front page to alert them to matters that concern us as citizens.

If enough of us do this, they will get to know what interest us most. As things stand, we seem to be sending the wrong signal. Letgs show them that media effect can work both ways.

Deolin, I find your comment "Their maintaining power is highly dependent on maintaining the level of ignorance and illiteracy in the electorate" highly degrading and downright condescending to all the people of South Africa, not only to those who you deem 'ignorant' and 'illiterate'. In a democracy, such as ours, all the people of the country have a say as to who is put into power, no matter their educational upbringing. Just because the majority of its citizens voted in a party not of your choice, those people (us) are ignorant. You obviously have a problem with this. All it does is highlight your sheer incapacity to grasp the concept of majority rule, the foundation of any democracy. You are probably one of those who yearn for 'the good old days', but those days are long gone and you have to live with that. Now, the people speak, ALL of the people, no matter whom they are or where they come from. Live with it. Do not insult fellow South Africans with your naivety.

Dave Thorpe, those "corrupt doctors" of whom you make mention have been found, after the proper enquiry (which clearly was not necessary) to have acted within the confines of the process of parole (medical parole in this case). To make a comment that they are corrupt is libelist, unless of course you have proof that they are indeed corrupt. This in itself exposes you for being a criminal.

Ok moxster, you are right, they are not courrupt, and Shaik is terminally ill. Can you maybe explain how come he looks so healthy and has not had one cardiac event since his departure from prison ?

The Moxster - BMX X6 is a simple typo, get over it. Only someone with the intellect of a toilet seat would confuse the issue. You should worry about the substance behind the story, as every real South African does!

Shaik might be a celebrity to you (your reference to the paparazzi) but in reality he is a convicted fraudster who's giving our criminal justice system finger. Is there a reason why it doesn’t bother you?

Moxster
Majority rule does not mean "rule without question". The issue I have is not with the rights afforded to persons as human beings or with human beings exercizing them and it is certainly not aimed at insulting anyone. If you would care to get out of your dream world and see whether these rights and the adminstration that has been voted into power, has significantly improved the lives of the masses as it could and should have, you would see that it has not. The government has failed it's people and corruption and self-enrichment are often highlighted as one of the causes of this and this Shaik issue is an illustration of the general deterioration of the respect for the rule of law. The standard of education and literacy is as bad as ever and in some instances deteriorating, but this state of affairs is benefitting the current government. Thats not an insult, it is reality. South Africa is capable of far better than this. We do'nt have to settle for the scraps we are offered and have a right to demand better (from our leaders).
Dont let your love for your the ANC cloud your judgement.

Methinks Shabbir was under the impression that Thanda Private Game Reserve was a Hospice .....

@Havelock Vetinari
I'm fully aware that absolute power corrupts absolutely and fully support the media as a way to counterbalance this unbridled power.

The crux of the matter though is that this kind of sensationalism saps the integrity of the media and does not accomplish ANYTHING in terms of changing the behavior of corrupt politicians. The ONLY antidote to corruption in a democracy is a vibrant multi-party system - we need to inject competition into the system. The racist DA lacks any credibility among the majority however have utterly failed us and now positioned us on the slippery slope to a single party system, placing our ENTIRE nascent democracy at risk. Cope with all its problems seems like the only viable opposition but still lacks the momentum to counterbalance the ANC's domination.

In the absence of a credible opposition, the media has an important role to play to highlight the REAL issues that stalk our democracy not simply parrot the gutter politics of the disgraceful racist DA party.

Pasta Bag, I am not a medical doctor.
Why don't you go and ask one ?

Coling August, no it does not bother me.
Shaik was granted medical parole, along with many others, simultaneously, via the proper processes. This was done transparently. Why would it bother me? [There's your reason.]
And no, there is no confusion on the issue of the BMW.
If this was done once, no problem. But twice by a media 'giant' such as M&G, in different years nogal, then the credibility of it's journo's needs to be questioned, very much like you do with certain politicians who are not to your liking. Is this not so? Or would you rather not want one to criticise those institutions which you do not want to be criticised? (Remind you of something?)

It is sad cause South Africa is spiraling quickly into a corrupt state. It will be intresting to see how next year's Transperency international index on percive corruption will pan out on South Africa. We are the most violant scociety, high inequality and next will be corruption in the globe. I wish someone can start to do something, especially institutions like EthicsSA. Talk is cheap, we need action.

Shaik complains that it is not fair that he has become the scapegoat, but that is just the way these things play out. He should count himself lucky that influence allowed him to cheat his way out of the prison.

The conduct of those doctors continues to remain questionable as does the enquiry which exonerated them. Shaik is clearly not really sick and never was seriously so.

Dave Harris: The 'Racist DA' - Hehehehe.

Incompetent and corrupt ANC - Ask the matrics.

@Dave Thorpe on January 8, 2010, 10:01 am

Why is anybody surprised by this whole case. The authorities are only following the example set down by the Ernst Saunders (Guinness Four) case in Britain. He is the only person on record who has been "cured" of Alzheimer's.

Sinudeltiy, it is A Luta Continua my friend - The Fight Continues.

Mabelane: Say it like it is Moffet!

"WE NEED CHANGE!"

And we need to change the mindsets of those that believe that the ANC is more important than South Africa. That corruption is ok, if it is performed by the ANC "Because of Apartheid"

We need to stop blaming the past, take responsiblity, become accountable, and PAVE OUR OWN FUTURES!

deolin willemse, now that is a much better rebuttal.
Not perfect, as its clearly flawed, but better.

Dot confuse the ANC with the (SA) government, the latter being a multi-party institution. It is not a perfect multi-party entity (as per Dave Harris), but its still a multi party govt.

Do not let your hatred for the ANC cloud your judgement.

Ken O'Connell, A Luta Continua translates into The Struggle Continues, not The Fight Continues.

Moxster: Do not let your love for the ANC cloud your judgement.

Is there an echo in here ?
He who petitions for townships sounds like a parrot.

@Moffit. Yip, talk is cheap. But so is education, now go and learn how to spell before you post comments.

@Dave - remember that the DA is the official opposition, which means they're the party with the second most support within our democrasy. They didn't appoint themselves, and even thought you don't like it, they do have significant support. Calling them names will not change that.

But I agree with you that we need a stronger opposition, but we also need a competent government. However, this is not the fault of opposition - all countries new to democracy experience this, and it takes some time for the electorate to trust the opposition or to stop supporting the liberators. We are not unique, and we'll just need to be patient. But yet, the ANC's support will wane.

Shaik (and his supporters in government) is making a mockery of the legal system, and making a mockery of us as citizens. If he is too sick for jail, he should be too sick to go gallivanting! This is an insult to all law abiding South Africans.

The Shaiks are living proof that the ANC used thugs and gangsters in their fight for freedom.The only problem is, they want retribution. But be careful, Mo is the head of the NIA and knows what underpants you are going to wear tomorrow! Making him the boss there is like making Bin Laden the Minister of Jewish Affairs.

An interesting development. It does strike me that regardless of the evidence of parole violations, that Mr Shaik's sentence was rather severe given (1) Violent crimes often have lower sentences (2) Other arms deal corrupters and corruptees are probably scot free (although legally this does not invalidate the sentence as the tu quoque defence only applies to the bringer of charges). However I do ask that people are a little more judicious in labelling each other 'racist' this and 'racist' that when arguing - for 2 reasons - (1) it seems to hev become semantically meaningless and is used as a label when anyone disagrees with you and (2) in most cases it is not done in response to any specific text indicating such behaviour - engage with the text not the assumed identity of the writer to understand this point ....Pretend you are the 'Turing machine' engaging with text and you will have a non-abusive dialogue. Hence let's all engage with the subject and not resort to intellectually lazy labelling. Bonne chance.

Sinus, as Kitty Kat so aptly refers to you, stop mucking about and come up with more tangible arguments than the usual drivel you spew here. You sound like a stuck record, with the song 'Corruption' playing over and over, with the same result: hot air and a broken turn table.

A Luta Continua !
The Struggle Continues !

People it all bloils down to one Context, which is. we may rant and rave cause a big hoo haa on these blog about such lawlessness, but won’t change nada jack. All we doing is just fighting amongst each insulting each one another but fact remains MR Shaik IS NOT GOING BACK TO JAIL. period finish and klaar.

Moxster: My arguments are there, valid and sound. You just need to drop your biastness for it to sink in. My 'usual drivel' is the truth, and I repeat it, for it to sink in.

At least I try and debate, instead of just throwing insults and misquotes around.

@Ian Mcintosh - do not be foolish and explain away Sinus's stupidity. If she had been in my village, she would have been fingered as the village idiot but since we are not in a village, we will settle for the 'forum-idiot".

Happy?

@Havelock - you're wasting your time talking to Harris. He is a paid ANC lap dog. It's in his mandate to spew pro ANC propaganda wherever possible.

Fact of the matter is, we can debate this all we want and make this big hoohaa about MR Shaik lawlessness. That will not change the fact that his not going to go back to jail. MG should write a story ones his back in jail that would be an interesting read. boy what a debate that would be. Till then yoll are just wasting companies time.

Kitty Kat: At least I dont lie on these forums. 'Right-wing', 'nazi', 'the da only supplies services to the whites, and will bring back apartheid' etc.

You have no arguments left, your only rebuttal now, is in how big your insults are.

What's the hullabaloo about. Don't you all know Shabir Shaik is the boss behind the boss?

The Moxster
Please do'nt confuse hatred with questioning and expressing free speech. This is not about any particular party but the failures of a government. If you cannot recognize these failures and hold the government accountable, you are as much a part of the failure as those perpetrating it. Quoting dictionary defintions and insulting me does not contribute to your argument. You and too many South Africans like you console yourself with the words;...."well it could have been worse..."

Everybody, just a reminder that these forums are for discussion and not name calling. If you want to refer to people as idiots and racists, then please go somewhere else.

Do none of you people work?? All you guys do is endlessly argue about stuff that doesn't matter. You can ge guaranteed that if there is an article about Zuma there will be 20 people blindly abusing him and 20 people blindly supporting him. No one else gets to have any type of debate because the message boards are clogged up with all your vitriol and prejudices.

Seriously people, why can't you just get on with it and make SA wonderful instead of having bitter, racist arguments all the time. If we all just stood together then we would be a force to be reckoned with and no government, president, MP, opposition leader etc etc would have to sit up and really listen to us. When we are divided and distracted then they will get away with murder.

A K, i totally agree.

The Shaik thing is all about covering up the arms deal. Shaik is just a very basic tool used to deflect and cover up the mess.

I say, let this convicted criminal go, but lets have a open inquiry into the arms deal and let the big players pay for their roles in deflecting money from the poor to their own pockets.

deolin willemse, tis funny when you say "This is not about any particular party but the failures of a government" and then go on to say "don't let your love for the ANC cloud your judgement".
That is called a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron of sorts. No mention of the ANC is made in the article or in my comments, up to a certain point when I replied to you, yet the first people to make anti-ANC remarks are you and those like you.
And, I hold the government very much accountable for the execution of its policies. The only difference is that I, and others like me, also see the good that it has done, not just the bad. And believe me, it has done more good than bad. If you do not agree with or some of this, then you, my friend, are the failure that you so liberally make mention of.

@Concerned Citizen
Get real man, the DA have been put into power predominantly by the white vote. Saying they are have "second most support within our democrasy" may be technically correct but its laughable since they hold a paltry number of seats and are not taken seriously by the ANC. Watching the racist DA in action is like witnessing a train wreck in slow motion....LOL

You speak of "stop supporting the liberators"!
You obviously are clueless as to what people had to sacrifice for liberation. What you fail to realize is that , people will NEVER forget the liberators. Just like apartheid was built on the false belief of racial superiority, similarly, the racist DA is doomed because of their inability to be inclusive even after 15 YEARS of liberation!!

@Sinus - You are really starting to lose that pose.
What is biastness?

@Deon - There is no confusion wrt to the unconditional hatred that is quite openly displayed in this forum. And this is once again juxtaposed against freedom of speech. I think if you are going to be honest and in the interest of decency, you will admit that the coded language and the song that is being sung strikes a certain note.
When one enters into a reasoned dialogue you do so in order to evaluate impartially and REASONABLY the strengths and weaknesses of the argument. Any argument, including context of lively debate,conflict of opinion, questioning or reasoned persuasion must be subjected to the most basic tools of analysis. We all do this from time to time.
The problem that EXISTS is the weak contribution by journalists. It fails dismally to inform, eduacate or to constructively influence mind or behaviour. What is being recognised is the obvious RIGHT WING BIAS which can be explained as white nationalist views.

Dave Harris: What makes the ANC/Apartheid NP so different? They both, called you 'unpatriotic' if you didnt/dont support them.

The ANC does take the DA seriously. If you were 'in the know', youd be aware of all the measures the ANC are taking, to win back the WCape (BIG embarrasment to the ANC).

The DA isnt 'exclusive', more and more non-white supporters are joining the DA every day. Irrespective of the "Racist DA" and "DA will bring apartheid back" propaganda.

Desmond Tutu's son is a DA supporter ("Coconut" as you will call him).

Yes Dave, but the DA were still voted for - and a white vote counts just as much as a black vote. Also, there are many "non-whites" in the Western Cape and some of them must have supported the DA otherwise they wouldn't be in power now. Maybe if the corrupt and inept ANC took the DA a little more seriously, this country would not be in the mess it is. And if the racist DA is a train wreck in slow motion, then the corrupt ANC must be a train wreck at high speed, in HD, with Dolby surround sound.

People will not forget the individual heroes, just the political party. I happened in Kenya and if Mugabe played by the rules, it would have happened in Zim as well.

You know, it really puzzles me what the point of all this noise is. Backtrack a bit and tell me what was ever achieved by such DA and media bickering. If i recall correctly, nothing. I do not condone it but clearly this strategy is doing very little to change the ways of the ruling party. They probably laughing or showing you the middle finger. Lemme demonstrate how this doesn't work:
-Zuma got scot-free amid all the bickering.
-He appointed Menzi Simelane controversially.
-He overlooked Dikgang Moseneke and appointed Sandile Ngcobo.
-Government ministers continue to spend beautifully on cars and hotels.
the list goes on and on. In fact, it's kinda hard to recall any incident where the DA actually won with these type of noises. I guess it is the intellectual way of protest.........but it doesn't get sh*t done. It failed with apartheid and it is failing now. Toyi toyi not sexy enough for them? or undignified??

You guys are entertaining!

Sesationalising issues won't get s*&t done. If the DA had any amout of sense, they would have realised this by now. The ruling party essentially shows them the middle finger every time they run to the media with this issues...........Toyi toyi may not be sexy but it gets s&*t done.

@Deon - to prove my point - I suggest you look at the likes of CONCERNED CITIZEN and what it says. This is a clear eg of nationalists who use mainstream issues to promote their hatred. They portray a certain amount of defiance and dispossession.

We all know that Western Cape is the most racist of provinces. We understand the politics of seperation and racial hierarchy in the Western Cape. The only reason why DA does well in this province as per their slogan of 'taking back our province' is because of the so-called colored. Now this 'colored, we know has had great difficulty in entering mainstream SA populace not only because of categorisation but also because of hierarchy.

The fact that the Tutus, Mamphele Ramphele or the rhoda kadalie's support DA is due to assimilation, patronage and self-importance. I suggest you do a comprehensive study of the politics of Western Cape to reference this assimilation.

The history of our politics will put the interest of DA in the proper context. It is just a pity that media has been co-opted as its member instead of educating us to make proper and informed judgements!

will mo: "Who will guard the guardian"?

Kitty: "We all know..." - Sounds like 'speculation' to me.

PS Kitty: Didnt I disprove your 'DA racist' comments yesterday?!

"The DA only delivers services to the whites" - Which I disproved, by showing you the billions that the DA is spending on townships in Cape Town.

Lies vs Facts
Debates vs Insults

@sinudeity: u tell me, i am not disputing that it is thier role as the opposition party but i am saying to date, they haven't won a single battle against the ANC. Methinks a smart person would have changed tactics.........considering that they are such smart-ar&ses.

@Kitty Kat - I have a few issues with your last messages.
1. I went and re-read my post and honestly don't see how you read "nationalism" and "hatred" in my comment. Could you please elaborate.
2. Is the Western Cape the most racist? We all certainly didn't know that! Do you have any facts to back up this statement?
3. This history of our politics will also put the ANC in its proper context, ie. corrupt and inept (and sometimes racist as well).

I also found it fascinating the way in which you referred to the Coloured community. Referring to the community as "so-called" is offensive. And yes, the community do feel marginalised as they were too black to benefit from Apartheid and too white to be integrated into the ANC. But unlike Blacks they don't feel victimised and look forward towards a better future - that is why most of them support the DA.

@ Concerned Citizen: I couldn't agree with you more regarding your comments pertaining to the Coloured community. They are an amazing community, and they have their heads screwed on properly, unlike others.....

Concerned Citizen, what a crock of bull.
Who gave you the god complex to speak on behalf of the so-called coloured or "Coloured". I definitely take strong exception to being called Coloured, and would rather accept the term 'So-called Coloured' or Mixed-Race. The term 'Coloured' was bestowed on us by your nationalist colonial masters, when they did not know what to make of us. I cannot think of a more derogatory name as being called Coloured. It stinks. And for you to assume your god-like stance by subconsciously referring to the "Coloured" as so different from you is an example of how you and those like you still want to treat us (blacks in general, and Africans in particular) as second class citizens and as lesser beings as yourself/ves. I thought you started to make some real tangible arguments, unlike others, but then this 'Coloured' analogy of yours just demoted you right back to the place where your buddies Sinudeity, LouiseDodge, PastaBag, EmmaHume, RodBaker, ianMacintosh, CraigSmith, CraigW, etc. live in their dream world, where they assume mightier-than-thou statuses just because they assume that they were created from a more superior gene pool than that of the rest of the 'blind-sheep masses'.
Who are you to accuse blacks of feeling victimised ?
Who are you to demote Blacks to lesser beings than "Coloured"s ?
Most of the so-called coloureds in the WCape voted DA because they themselves have been brainwashed in thinking that they are better than Africans. This has gone on for the last 50years plus. This is where the stop-Zuma campaign worked most, not because it was effective, but because it honed in on the naivety of the WCape "Coloured", who inherently hate Africans. This is why the DA won the WCape, and not for any other reason.

People where is the voice of reoson? I cannot understand why curruption should be clouded by politics or race. If I remember well was the president of the ANC that removed the current president of the party when he was teinted by Shaiks crimes to clear himself in the court of law.

I fail to understand that what does the politics and race have to be used to justify reosoning in this issue. Shaik has a criminal record he is a criminal and a businessmen however we cannot say the ANC is a criminal's orginasation as well as we cannot say the DA is an apartheid orginasation!

Does ANC have criminals within it or within it's supportes? yes it does
Does the DA have reicist amongst it's members or within it's supportes? yes it does
However we must learn that indivisuals are not the party.

Poor Dave Harris, pooring vitriol and falsehoods to defend his beloved ANC.

The media DOES sensationalise and often does appeal to the lowest common denominator. It also acts as a public watchdog, the so-called fourth estate. The media has a respectable record in this regard, helping to expose the evils of apartheid; just so, it is exposing the evils of post-94 aparthate. Without the media, Infogate would not have been broadcast and Connie Mulder would have become president, making pre-94 apartheid worse.

Just as the media report on trash like Paris Hilton, Malema and other celebrities, it reports on Shaik. (One doesn't have to read the article if one isn't interested). Dave Harris does not get hot under the collar when the media reports on Jacob Zuma's wedding which, with all due respect, is not a matter of national importance. Why then does he get het up when it reports on Zuma's other - corrupt - relationship, especially when Shaik's contempt for his parole is NOT an isolated, irrelevant incident but, like Yengeni's parole issues, displays the arrogance of Harris' beloved ANC and its disrespect for the law.

I shall enjoy reading Harris' personal attack on me, totally unrelated to the issues in the article or my post but a mere venting of his spleen.

Stats SA refers to this population group as coloured. Not 'so called coloured' to suit arguments.

Thanks Moxster!

Moxter, seriously dude, you're going to give yourself a heart attack with all that anger pumping through your body all the time. Just chill out.

@Moxster - if you get a chance- there are some great books to read: The International Politics of Race by Micheal Banton -
Blood and Politics by Leonard Zeskind and What does the Ruling Class do when it Rules by Goran Therborn...
Go well!

Moloko, StatsSA has got nothing to do with my personal preference.
Your level of a simple analytical deduction leaves much to be desired. You could not even be bothered with spelling 'coloured' with a capital 'C', which is a real example of my allegations.

Kitty Kat, you can contact me on kmocke@yahoo.com, if you're interested in discussing this phenomenon further, and other issues of mutual interest. I will then send you my proper email address. Let me know ...

Thanks, Kitty Kat !
'Nkosi-kakuhle' !

What a f*ing idiot!!

Sorry, that is .ie and not .com

Amen good people,i will just say that M&G is failing us fellow comrade.

We must not encourage silly publicity and i know we love media but this,agggggggggh come on lmfao!!!!

Right, now that The Moxster and Kitty Kat have taken their postings to each others personal inboxes,... let's get on with it. ***chuckle***

“Why should I even be asking for a pardon? If three people were part of a so-called plot to elicit funds from the French, why are the French free, why is the president free and why is Shaik still sitting as a convict?” he demanded. SO TRUE!!! The President must move quickly to release comrade Shaik. The DA must go jump. Olofsson is an international capitalist who at least have respect for His Majesty Zulu King, he can perhaps teach SA whites to have some manners..

@ Ndlovu: "perhaps teach SA whites to have some manners.." Just by your posting it is clear that YOU do not have any manners.

Wow Moxster! I don't think your comments are anything but rants and raves, but I would like to clarify a few points.

Mixed race is very different from being Coloured. Being Coloured also includes a cultural identity – an ethnic grouping. A Coloured person is also very different from a child produce by a black/white couple as it isn’t limited to the colour of your skin. Why don’t we also refer to so-called Black people, or so-called White people? The term “so-called” is derogatory and demeaning and should best be avoided.

I suppose I cannot talk for each and every Coloured person, just as you cannot talk for every Black person.

I didn’t single out the Coloured community because they are second class citizens – I responded to a previous comment. Please see Kitty Kat on January 8, 2010, 12:40 pm who mentioned the Coloured community in her message.

The point on victimisation is a personal observation. Black people are far more likely than the Coloured or Indian communities to play the race card in a discussion, for example you start off lashing me for using the word Coloured, but end up calling Coloured people racists and elitists. For me, this is and example of victimisation. If you disagree with my analysis then I look forward to your counterargument.

I did not place Black people in a hierarchy below Coloured people. However, I have observed that the two communities have different world views. White and Indian people again have different views – but never did I place these in any kind of hierarchy.

Moxster, you need to consider that not everybody who votes for the DA are racist. The supporters of all races genuinely feel that this party is the best party to lead the country. Just because you don’t agree, doesn’t make me wrong. As I said, a vote is a vote – they all count, irrespective of the colour of the voter.

I hope this clarifies my point. And my apologies for having such a lengthy reply! I look forward to your reasoned response. Rest assured I will not respond to further name calling, slurring and ranting.

Dave Harris, who decides what is sensationalist or not? Just because you don't like a topic does not make it sensationalist. Many people find the article informative. So go and smoke a pipe and relax and get used to these kinds of stories that are in the public interest. I'm not surprised to see you and Moxster back with the same old boring racist comments. The two of you are the ones Malema referred to when he said "we are prepared to die for Zuma". For that reason people won't listen or take note of your side of the argument. Your debates will fall on deaf ears as the two of you are incapable of persuasion through your style of debate.

Concerned Citizen, thank you for showing some respect by your personal reply and explanation. It is much appreciated.
I do not agree with your comments, but we can take this offline, as I'm getting gatvol of dealing with the 'other' holier-than-thou's.
I have given my [miscellaneous] email address, above.
Please feel free to use it, and we can take it from there...

Dodge Louise is back, but still as confused and irrelavant as before ...

Is that why you couldn't help but reply to my comment Moxster. You don't reply (well not normal people) to irrelavance. I like your e-mail address ending in ie. How come not sa? Have a secret love of that western country called Ireland? Are you desperate for e-mail buddies? Shame!

@Louise, Dave Harris is quite correct in slamming unnecessary and sensationalist media headlines and content. Notwithstanding the poor quality of journalism or editing.

If media informs the national debate erroneously, then how will civil society and others respond (in this discourse) responsibly?
There are so many issues that we are grappling with and it is in this area of responsibility that media FAILS US!

Kitty Kat. Anything the M&G write about that refers to this government or it's cronies will be deemed sensationalist, poor quality journalism etc.... by the likes of you, Dave Harris, The Moxster et al. Fortunately for them, you aren't the only ones that read the papers. Considering you lot never have a good thing to say about M&G, you do your fair share of reading it. Why? If I hated something that much I would keep away from it. I repeat, who decides what is sensationalist or not? If you and Dave Harris and Moxster want a paper to reflect your one sided thinking, go and start one yourself. Simple isn't it?

Like I always maintain, the Media Tribunal (Act) needs to be implemented without delay. It should and will protect all parties involved. We see every day examples of how the freedom of press is being abused, solely for the purpose of revenue generation and misinformation, nothing else.

Moxster
I hope you overcome this missionary zeal to defend the ruling party at all costs. Good it has done for sure and up to now i cannot find a suitable alternative specifically on the issue of transformation out of the available options. Thats where it ends. However, it is the ANC themselves (especially under the Zuma leadership) that messed up their campaign in the Western Cape long before it started. In any event, JZ was never going to be a serious candidate in the Western Cape. Not only because of some brainwashing (as you put it) but because of JZ's classic shenaningans leading up to Polokwane and beyond. So while the DA is certainly no option, Coloured people are entiltled to vote for who they want just like anyone who voted for the ANC. And clearly they have attracted your resentment and unfair criticism for exercising their rights. I'm not saying it was best for them to vote DA but I am saying that it serves the ANC right. Lastly, try to employ some common sense in your reasoning because it would result in you failing to make a point. When referring to a government in a contemporary South African context, you inevitably refer to the ruling party especially when commenting on the success or failure of policies and/or implimentation. The two are not mutually exclusive even if they are so in their definitions. In other words, if you defend the ANC you also defend the SA government and vice cersa, in this context. In another context they may be mutually exclusive concepts. So your distinction is completely artificial and pointless for these purposes.

Deolin, well at least you used a capital 'C'.
The rest of your comment is utter rubbish ...

Moxster, thanks for the invite. However, this is a public debate and would like to keep my comments public.

Mr Moxster,
Your demand for press censorship is appalling. You are no better, sir, than Eschel Roodie or BJ Vorster for demanding censorship of the press, an irony which I trust will not be lost on you. I, on the other hand, will defend your right to freedom of expression, whether or not I agree or disagree with anything you say, regardless of your views. This is the difference between a belief in individual liberty and a belief in totalitarianism. I trust you would grant all others the same rights.

@Louise, it is as we say!
Resistance is a way of life and the age of indifference is over - GONE FOREVER!
And even if we suffer the greatest oppression or the greatest affronts to our human dignity, we will never cease to fight and resist. Democracy did not come to us through poeple like you, it came to us, the oppressed, through sheer defiance by ordinary people!

Moxster
So Shabir Shaik di NOT violate his parole? Did Shaik NOT get released under dubious circumstances? Did Shaik NOT spend most of his time in a hospital ward? did Shaik NOT get sent to the "best" prison? s Shaik NOT going to get a presidential pardon before he is re-arrested and sent back to jail. If you believe these media responses issued by the ANC officials and the relevant public officials you probably refuse to think for yourself. Trust me, while people die in prison, Shaik is gonna make a "miraculous" recovery from his apparent terminal illness. It seems to already started already (the berries).

@Gary Paul
That was a very cheap shot.What is evident from the comments above is that most White South Africans cannot move away from their racist comfortable past and the non white South Africans are still responding from a "prejudiced past" trying to justify a new beginning that guarantees an "equal society" that gives a SH-T about the colour of one's skin or hair.All of you should grow up.

@Concerned Citizen- Voting for DA = voting for your former slave masters. Unfortunately you can't change that. It's only in SA and Egypt where there's Coloured phenomenon. Go to USA, you are Black but if being Coloured makes you happy, suit yourself.

@The Moxster

"...the rest of your comment is utter rubbish"

This sentence is a fair summation of the quality of your thinking. Can't debate the points, so dismiss them out of hand.

You think I'm wrong? Ok, I challenge you to prove it - take deolin willemse's comments and argue them for us here, in this public forum, to prove to us you can actually think, because so far you're way down on the debating scorecard. This is the point of a public forum - to challenge poor thinking.

V

@Freedom Ndlovu

An important question (and one that applies not just to Freedom Ndlovu):

In what way (please be specific) does the DA equate to your "former slave masters"?

In anticipation,
V

When are people going to wake up to the fact that Shaik and his ilk, including the current rulers and their families are never going to be held accountable for their actions. Instead they live a life of luxury, breaking the law at every turn and do not give a damn what people think. Who do you think paid for it - the taxpayer of course!

@Havelock Vetinari
Its quite simple. The Executive is dominated by a group of White Males.This has been done to show the rest of SA-which is Black dominated what the whites can do. This will perpetuate the thinking that only whites know how to govern.Unfortunately the Da got off to a bad start with the Matric Results.So there.

WOW louise, did not know you’re a extraordinary person…

Kitty Kat, you must be the dumbest commentator on this page. You think democracy came about through normal people? Normal people like Mandela, Biko, Lethuli?

If the previous ANC was made up of the halfwits you elected as leaders in the past decade, apartheid would still be the norm of the day.

Lastly, you and other ‘Friends of JZ/Hlope/Shaik/Mathe’ (mox, a2a etc) should stop flattering yourselves. You are the ordinary people that did f*all for democracy. Your new leaders are flawed and not a patch on the great ANC leaders of yesteryear.

Kitty Kat, I'm glad you can spell democracy as that's all you know about it!

Donald Mathray, the DA executive is not made up of all white males. There you go arguing without the facts. Really dumb!

The Moxster- The media tribunal act must be implented. Who do you suggest sits on this tribunal and once again I ask (which you haven't or can't answer) is who decides what is sensationalist or not? Besides sensationalist articles are not illigal. Becuase you don't like the articles or the comments does not make it illigal. And you haven't answered my other question i.e. what's with your e-mail address ending in ie (Ireland) and not sa (South Africa)? Got something to hide there mate?

@Donald-(not as if my response will change anything.) DA is the association of disgruntled whites who still wish they were in government. This party has transformed itself from being a pro-Jewish interest party (though still led by a Jew) to a coalition of whites against Black. When the NP through reconciliation gesture joined the ANC they created a void to those whites who still hated Blacks. I don't bother myself about DAs successes and failures. As Thabo Mbeki told the ANC politburo in exile that "South Africa is not ready for a white liberator" (referring to Joe Slovo's bid for ANC presidency), that has not changed. In the history of white people in Africa, not a single one of them ever brought democracy to any country or done any meaningful thing for a Black man, how will this change with the DA? How can they all of a sudden lead Blacks? However I understand the white people support of DA, it promotes their interests. I don't think they're stupid for voting DA. I also don't think Blacks are stupid for voting ANC. What I really think is unreasonable is to expect Blacks to vote Helen Zille! That shows how much you think of us!

Freedom and those racist DA members ala National Pary joined the ANC! They left the DA for the ANC! Ha! Ha! So you don't think whites are stupid voting DA but you are happy to insult whites that voted for the DA. See you stupid your comments are? And you think it is unreasonable to expect blacks to vote for the DA? Well there are many that do so deal with it.

Kitty Kat I had such a laugh at your first post. What was in your drink over Christmas and New Year? Shu you have got very dillusional!

Moxter, yes we say here The Struggle Continues, but the literal translation of A Luta Continua is The Fight Continues! BTW I live and work in Angola, though I know in your normal bad tempered way that will be sneered at. Don't bother replying, thanks.

@louise doidge
You should read my comments more carefully , Louise. I said "dominated" which is a fact.It is still a Black/White argument. People like you must start to work across colour and prejudice. I expected Havelock Vetinari to comment.

R47 000 a NIGHT? Misprint I am afraid or some other mistake. About R6000 per person. Check www.nature-reserve.co.za/pricing_kwazulu-natal-thanda-private-game-reserve.html. If I am wrong please post a correction!

@Freedom & Donald

Have you noticed that your argument is based almost entirely on race, and you completely fail to address the DA's positions, actions and policies? A government's function is effective and efficient administration of civil society, and talent in this respect is not determined by race.

I need say no more - your own words have condemned you.

V

@Havelock Vetinari
The situation in the Western Cape or in the rest of SA is to large extent based on Race. Insofar as the ANC is concerned it is trying to address past imbalances. It may have gone too far as recent appointments have shown.The DA has failed the Western Cape because they have appointed a WHITE MALE DOMINATED Executive,again making a racist action. When one comments one is forced to highlight RACE. That is the reality.

But you do make a fair comment viz "A government's function is effective and efficient administration of civil society, and talent in this respect is not determined by race." The DA and the aNC have contradicted this position.

@Havelock Vetinari
How could you possibly deny with a straight face the following about your racist DA party:
- is NP-Lite...a hangover from the apartheid days since its still dominated by whites in the upper echelons of its power structure even after 15 YEARS!
- employs gutter politics to personally attack and vilify its opponents
- uses the "meritocracy" argument against AA to demean and marginalize blacks in their OWN country
- is turning WC into the last bastion of apartheid by slowly pushing out blacks from the prime areas in CT and conducting a massive land grab in the rural areas
In the words of American folksinger,Pete Seeger, - When will they ever learn?

Davis Harris,Donald Mathray etc... Who gives a sh@$t what colour the members of the DA are? Fact of the matter is they are all SOUTH AFRICANS. So go and get knotted with your racist tripe!

@louise doidge
Do you read the comments you criticise- or is your racism blinding you? You have the same attitude of whites during aaapartheid (spelling is intended),when you cannot defend a position you become emotional.

Shaik never murdered anyone.
Yet he got 15 years.

There are murderers who get much less than that.
Some don't even get jail sentences.

People should forget about the Shaik issue.
There are more important things to worry about.
For example, 50 people are murdered every day. Very few of these murderers are ever caught.

The murder conviction rate is only 13%.
This is a shocking statistic which few people are aware of.

@Dave Harris

"...[DA] - is NP-Lite...a hangover from the apartheid days since its still dominated by whites in the upper echelons of its power structure even after 15 YEARS!"

Dave, I have no idea whether or not you are correct in this assertion, but nevertheless this has nothing to do with whether or not they are able to govern the province or the country. Even if they WERE (and I don't believe they are) all racist apartheid apologists, the law protects the people from the application of apartheid-like policies. That's what it is for. To judge a political party on its racial makeup is an injustice under our constitution and should go against the grain for any who fought for equality and justice (though not necessarily for those who fought only for power and money... ).


"...- employs gutter politics to personally attack and vilify its opponents "

As far as I am aware, the DA has taken up personal crusades against those who have got away with fraud or corruption, or have campaigned against ANC initiatives and deployments that have provided the ANC with leverage against the application of the law to its members. And speaking of gutter politics, I don't believe the ANC (read Julius et al) is in any position to criticise.


"...- uses the "meritocracy" argument against AA to demean and marginalize blacks in their OWN country"

What I find demeaning to blacks is the premise that they are unable to find positions based on their own merit.


"...- is turning WC into the last bastion of apartheid by slowly pushing out blacks from the prime areas in CT and conducting a massive land grab in the rural areas"

These are dire claims; I have no knowledge of this. Would you care to elaborate, and especially to substantiate?


"In the words of American folksinger,Pete Seeger, - When will they ever learn?"

Mr. Seeger was talking about war. The ANC are the ones who are always wanting to "struggle", "die for Zuma", "shoot to kill", "bring me my machine gun" etc... When will THEY ever learn?

V

Once Dave, Moxster and the pussy kat get on a roll it is a waste of time trying to debate.
Blinkered eyes do not come close to the tunnel vision views these guy are paid to write

Mark Robertson, you clearly have no clue what the Media Tribunal Act is about. It is definitely not about muzzling of the press or the suppression thereof or the denial of freedom of speech.
It is about holding the media accountable for what it publishes or chooses to publish. This is to ensure that it follows its agenda in informing the public in an objective, non-biased manner. In so doing the public obtains news, of public interest, from a neutral source so as to make up its own mind. Until now, all that certain media vehicles, such as the M&G, has shown is its total lack of professional. It has become a voice for the opposition and it does not take a genius to recognize that its not much of a fan of the ANC. I suggest that you do some research on the proposed act, you will be pleasantly surprised. This will also clarify others' views on sensationalism VS fact-based, investigative journalism. I also suggest that you further familiarise yourself with the Bill Of Rights, enshrined in the constitution, that contains the right to freedom of speech, especially the sub clause on an individual's right to dignity.
To put into perspective: citizens have the right to freedom of speech as long as it does not infringe on another's dignity.
eg. If I call your mother/girlfriend/wife/[boyfriend] a wh0re, I am protected by my right to freedom of speech, but does this mean that I have the right to insult your/their dignity ? (Get the picture ?)

JoeIrwin, as soon as 'we' disagree with you and your buddies, we are labeled blind sheep followers of the ruling party.
Do you not see the blatant flaw in that argument of yours ?
Some of you shout freedom of speech left, right and centre, but you guys would rather have us shut the eff up, wouldn't you ?
Do you recognise the oxymoron ?

And don't come with the at-least-if-you-could-debate-intelligently crap. Have you sat in a parliamentary session lately ? You should try it some time. What is said on this blog is chicken feed in comparison. In addition, we create alter ego's on this forum, clearly not to debate, but for a no-holds-barred, pull-no-punches mud-slinging match, at almost every turn. Most of us will not speak the stuff we do here in a one-on-one confrontation. This forum gives us our very own soap box, just like in Hyde Park, London. Long gone are the days that the M&G forum was the playground of the self-proclaimed intellectuals, very much like its journalistic 'prowess'.

So, in more simplistic terms, get over yourself already !

Moxster, thanks for laying your cards out for all to see. That's awesome..not that anyone who has read an MG blog recently had any doubts anyway. Confessions of an MG troll.

By your own admission, you come here not to debate, but to incite, mudsling, smear and bait.... your personal soapbox, as you say. What a surprise!
Well, yes, you may have just succeeded in reducing this blog to a "no-holds-barred, pull-no-punches mud-slinging match, at almost every turn". Well done mate! Such a noble accomplishment! What a clever chap you are!

"Alter ego"? No, just "ego". Boy, what a whopping chip you must have on your shoulder, to be that desperate for such attention: I just cannot imagine how much time you must spend trolling on this blog spoiling for a fight. What a colossal waste of time and energy. Sad!

What's even more revealing is that you admit that you would never have the courage to express what you express here in a one-on-one confrontation. Why not, Moxster? Are you ashamed of whom you are? Maybe you lack the conviction of what you have to say? Or are you just a coward.

Whatever..
What is clear is that you have just destroyed the last shred of any credibility you may have ever had by that little self-congratulatory confession.

Moxter. ..."In addition, we create alter ego's on this forum, clearly not to debate, but for a no-holds-barred, pull-no-punches mud-slinging match, at almost every turn. Most of us will not speak the stuff we do here in a one-on-one confrontation".

Well you certainly cleared that up for us. As I said; its a waste of time trying to debate with you guys.
I am just telling it like I see it, which your statement now confirms.

Moxster, the was nothing in your long essay that surprised any of us. You didn't have to waste your time writing it as we already knew what you stood for i.e. show off with very little intellect and a huge chip on your shoulder. People like you and Kitty Kat et al are so intellectually bankrupt that you feel the urge to impress on the blogs but instead turn yourselves into laughing stock. Dillusional the bunch of you!!!!!

Why do these debate turn into racial squabbles of power and who is better the DA or ANC, its kinder getting a tad bit old now guys. Does this mean will never break free from, racial prejudice. IT will always be black, white, colored, and Indian and not South Africans. We blame the post 94 gov for all this but still blame the current gov for the same crap will it ever end? NOT!!! Am I asking for too much. The current the old and current GOV is messed up will our indifferences change anything. A big NOT!!.
Someone said grow up. I think that’s long over do guy’s.

@Havelock Vetinari
Thanks for your reply....we can now see your true colors. That the great thing about freedom of speech, you are given enough rope to hang yourself ....LOL

Even Oom Piet can see through this BS of the racist DA and their media cohorts. Good for you Oom Piet!!

BTW Moxter, you know you're close to the truth when these apartheid apologists run out of excuses and start attacking you. A typical racist DA tactic...aren't they so predictable? ....LOL

Harris: I know Im getting close to the truth, when you guys start throwing around insults, and racism cards.

Harris: Hehe, mind you, it seems your only defense against other political parties, is to give them an insulting label.

Like the 'greedy, power hungry coconuts' of COPE.

Harris: Could you please link any evidence you have, that the DA is 'racist' or what role they have played thus far, in bringing 'apartheid back'.

@Dave Harris

Firstly, regarding my "colours". I have no home colours, but right now I feel that the ANC is proving itself unqualified for the job of running a country. On the other hand, the DA has strong, intelligent leadership and a policy that (by my subjective judgement) is not too bad as political documents go. So yes, I support the DA vs the ANC, but based on policy, integrity and leadership - the ONLY requirements in governing a country, I don't base my support on race.

Regarding your statement, "...given enough rope to hang yourself":
Ok, I'm waiting for the choking sensation... nothing... Perhaps I don't know that I've hanged myself because you haven't explained to me how. This seems to be a trend with your comments - statements proclaiming the supremacy of your arguments that have no points of reference, no context, no explanation of your reasoning... in fact no credibility at all.

So I'm waiting for part 2 of your comment that I have hanged myself, explaining why you think so.

In anticipation,
V

@Hevelock- you must continue complaining you sure have time on your hands, we are busy running the country. Thanks to our African Gods and ancestors.
@Louise- Don't forget to cook for your husband tonight..

@Freedom Ndlovu

I'm still waiting for a reasoned response. Yours certainly isn't

Ndlovu: You made a typo. Its not 'running' its 'ruining'.

There is hope, after all! Moxter gave his e-mail to his cohorts, perhaps even to Dave Harris and KityKat. They have decided sometime ago that there is no point in debating "racist whites" on blogs organized by the "racist M&G"! It would be a great idea if they were to communicate only with one another by e-mail instead of polluting these pages.

To the level headed among the bloggers: Just stop debating with the likes of Moxster, Dave Harris, Nisko, Freedom. They are complete idiots who dont have a clue on what good governance looks like because they havent experienced it.

Poor buggers; I mean come on: their role model is a morally bankrupt man with a standard 3 level of eduction.

Does it get any more pathetic than that?

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaring evident which everybody has decided not to see" Ayn Rand. Why is Thanda Game Reserve such a haven for all these controversial leaders/personalities?