Lulu Xingwana describes lesbian photos as immoral

How the hell did Xingwana get to be the minister of arts and culture? She clearly knows nothing about either. The only disgusting thing about this exhibition is the minister's behaviour.

Freedom of expression SA bill of rights section 16

16. Freedom of expression

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, which includes ­
1. freedom of the press and other media;
2. freedom to receive or impart information or ideas;
3. freedom of artistic creativity; and
4.

academic freedom and freedom of scientific research.
2. The right in subsection (1) does not extend to ­
1. propaganda for war;
2. incitement of imminent violence; or
3. advocacy of hatred that is based on race, ethnicity, gender or religion, and that constitutes incitement to cause harm.

ehm... Lulu dharling... grow the F#@% up and support your countries bill of rights and freedom of expression!!!!!

Ironically she has done more to publicise the whole event by walking out, than if she had just behaved herself and acted as a good minister should, by showing up on time, making a deadly boring speech, pretending interest in some of the works and then pleading another engagement. How hard can it be? (to quote a decidedly non-cultural group of motoring fanatics)

Extraordinary. This Minister is a disgrace - she walked out of a performance at the World Summit on Arts and Culture last year too on some spurious excuse. She clearly has no clue about her portfolio or of the concept 'freedom of expression'. South Africa's artists are being screwed by the government and we are poorer as a country as a result.
Where's the 2010 Arts and Culture programme, Minister? You're setting this country up to be majorly embarrassed come World Cup...you do nothing and contribute nothing. There are so many other people who would do a better job in this portfolio - forget politics and give them a chance.

Oh dear the usual sanctimonious posturing from my favorite secularists. Pictures of lesbians having sex is now culture.
Good on you minister.
Let me reassure you that there are many who see things your way.
Ella try and not raise your blood pressure too much dear.
You know that self satisfied secularits sense of self righteousness can be damaging for your health,
Intern Africa get a life. Displaying pornography in public is now a right??

"It was immoral, offensive and going against nation-building."

Uh Duh! How the hell does art featuring lesbians go against 'Nation Building'

What a wanker!

Isabella the pictures weren't of lesbians having sex haha. Stop being so ignorant... it's embarrassing...

The minister's behaviour was the only thing going against nation-building in my opinion...

I am always amazed at the kneejerk reaction people of certain sexual persuations have to everything.

It is clear from the article that the minister did not disagree with the issue of lesbianism, but with the portrayal of the issue in this exhibition.
Freedom of expression yes, but what if this freedom of expression goes against the persons values, and borders on the immoral?
Surely we have to limit it then.

You just have to look at the pornographic industry in the US, which are also allowed because people like Larry Flint, claimed freedom of expression, but are making millions by exploiting the sexual act. I'm not saying that the exibition was pornography, but we have to be wary on how far we allow freedom of expression, as once you hit the downhill, its hard to stop.

In my view, when gay people over-react, and see ghosts of discrimination in every corner, they are far from confident and comfortable with their sexuality.

The Praetor

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/02/south-african-minister-lesbian-exhibition

Do these pictures border on immoral?? Hardly pornographic...

Lulu's another ANC embarrassment. This is the crass petit-bourgeois prudishness of a backward person who doesn't grasp the simple truth that art is SUPPOSED to challenge.

And to think that this barbarian actually gets paid big taxpayer bucks to pretend to be the Arts minister!

Ridiculous!

But no surprise.

Lulu couldn't run more high profile positions like agriculture and land affairs....so they put her in the arts. She is fairly incompetent. The least government can do is send her on an art course/degree?

Isabella - talk to the hand, 'cos the ears ain't listenin'....

Paul Carlos
as you may have seen from the pictures in the link above, that's hard core porn, and I'm sure mother grundies had their panties in a knot long before that was allowed for public exhibition.

As for the Larry Flint comparison - dude you are way off this is an art exhibition, the gay attack... jirre boet... are you aware that 90+% heterosexual men have those images as their fantasy - thus that particular brand of porn being widely available...

IVDW... tante... let me tell you something...

When a public Servant or minister of ARTS AND CULTURE starts talking about 'non-nation building images' my minds starts screaming what prey tell are said images, Stalin comes to mind the centuries of suppression of Egyptian art images of the great leader and Gaddafi, spring to mind... holding some glorified heroic F@#$king pose with a hammer or a breitling held high up in the air ...

don't tell me what is art and what is not! How images are to be made, consumed or not! f#$%^&k THAT I tell you straight to your face. {he says singing in a very heavymeatal growl}

but that's my personal and constitutional option.

As for the moral mutha grundies... pick a channel not to see soft core woman on woman ACTION... if that's your thing... not mine...

btw... love those pictures! :) Tender is the word that comes to mind... don't know about you guys...

thanks for the pics Marea. change of tone from Paul and Isabella perhaps?

Go Lulu!! "Freedom of speech/expression" goes both ways. It is not just a convenient right for liberals.

@Ian a change of tone is unlikely ... when prejudice clouds judgement, a change of mind does not come easily ... :)

Is that all it takes to get a minister to run away? Show her pictures of naked bodies of women? (And we can't tell from the photographs if the women were lesbians.)

In this spirit, and as I am all for chasing away stupid, reactionary, conservative politicians, just tell me where I need to rock up naked with my boobs and bumps on glorious display. I'm keen to participate in any peaceful action that sends Xingwana running back to the reactionary hills where she belongs.

Grow up, Minister (and Isabella and co.). Throw off your mental shackles and your Victorian (yes, Queen Victoria, that ultra conservative British queen!) sensibilities. Nudity is natural. And if you want to get into a discussion about lesbianism, which is a separate matter, bring it on.

Minster, what I find immoral and offensive is the fact thatour ppl are still using the bucket system. That politicians are enriching themselves and their families, that we support dictators and the gab between rich and poor is widening. So Minister, it is your responsibility to uphold/protect and fight for whats contained in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I think they should have a book for dummies on the Constitution/Bill of Rights and re-educate these public figures!!

I am sorry but there is nothing pornographic about those photos.
Clearly the minister objects to what the photos represent.

Since when does taking nude pictures make someone an artist?If that is the criteria then half the country is artistically gifted.Not wanting be unfair I took the liberty to research this woman's work.The pictures future either guys or lesbians in various sexual poses.Fine too.Now consider the fact that children will view this,problem.Also as a taxpayer it does not sit well with me that I have funded some softcore pornography.If someone wants to do this sort of thing,let them go source alternative funding besides our money.

Maybe the minister is a closet lesbian (sorry my lesbian sisters). This borders on hate speech, the continuous killing and raping of lesbians and will continue because the minister perpetuate these stereotypes. Or maybe the minister doesn't have such a beautiful body to display in the first place now she's upset to see other black women do it. Minister, it is okay for young girls when they practice their culture/traditions to be totally naked...! or is that also offensive, immoral and against nation building?

Art is art, you uneducated fascist woman. Wake up its the 21st century. Some woman contrary to what you believe actually do Love and want to live with each other, to the detractors, grow up, either that or get into your gestapo uniform.

The supreme irony: "Xingwana served as chairwoman of SADC's Regional Women's Caucus. She also chaired the Joint Monitoring Committee for the IMPROVEMENT OF QUALITY OF lIFE AND STATUS OF WOMEN for two years." (Cape Times 03 03 2010).....

No sorry Ian and co...

Lets put the emotions aside, and think clearly. Would this issue have been blown out of proportion, if the minister had walked out on an exhibition simulating heterosexual sex acts? Somehow, I dont think so. She would probably have been lauded as making a stand against offensive materal, and would have been seen as a champion of sexual exploitation.

Just as everyone expects their lifestyle to be respected, they should respect others in return. So if the minister or any other person finds something offensive, they surely have the right to walk away, and not be forced to endure what they find offensive(simulated sexual acts in the name of art, not lesbianism mind you),
simply because they have to appear politically expedient, and not offend the gay world, who waits with baited breath to hysterically scream about how they are marginalised(whether imagined or real)

'If you dont know how to live, then live as you know'
Sergei Kruschev

So now if you object to pornography somehow you are supporting the killing and raping of lesbians. Once again a jump of Orwellian proportions by our defenders of tolerance. We can tolerate anything except intolerance. This is once again an example of how the gay lobby seeks to "normalize" their lifestyle. We have reached secular nirvana it is all about choice. Diet coke or Coke zero, gay or straight the freedom to be me. The modern super mall of lifestyle choices. We have a traditional society here who are not interested in the latest western trends. I agree the bucket system is immoral. What is also immoral is a bunch of white liberals using the freedoms won by ordinary balck people, to develop their own relativist hedonistic desires whilst the people who struggled for those freedoms are still in the gutter. I am pretty sure the right to dispaly pornogrpahy and murder unborn childrend was not the reason why the Youth of Soweto rose up in 1976.

It seems that social cohesion can only be achieved if everyone is the same; so much for unity in diversity.
Maybe a name change is in order: Afro-Nazi-Congress anyone?

Paul, the artists wasn't to my mind trying to promote gay/lesbian lifestyles but merely promoting a social message of our dignity, our bodies and the wantoned lack of respect for women. The raping of women expressed through art. So you have also no problem with E-tv showing pornography during prime time...Did you lobby the government in stopping this...i DON'T THINK SO

I've seen more nakedness in a lingerie catalogue. Ooops!

"We dedicate this day to all the heroes and heroines in this country and the rest of the world who sacrificed in many ways and surrendered their lives so that we could be free," he says, " Their dreams have become reality." Isabelle et all, this is what we've fought for, not further oppression, hate speech, bigotry, discrimination agains't one's sexual preferences or lifestyle. An extract from Nelson Mandela's acceptance speech in 1994

Well done Minister. At last someone in SA with some morals. There seems to be no end to where people will go if they are left to their own devices. Look up the posts here and you'll see people who would easily get used to some pretty horrific practices if it was left to them. Thanks again Minister.

Well done Lulu Xingwana. Congrtulations on standing up for your rights and that of normal men and women of South Africa.
Why the gay and lesbian keep on shoving into the straight people’s faces that it is their right to live the way they are living I can’t understand.
They are going against GOD and nature and no argument they have can and will ever proof GOD or nature wrong!
BAAAAAAAH!

Lulu,took a bold step in evading,such invitations.She has a right to choose too.No matter how,you view it guys.

Lulu was a dismal failure as minister of Agriculture and will be a dismal failure at Arts and Culture.

What wonderful leaders the ANC produces...

Dewahl Visser:
What is your right to live? That you are a god fearing, normal, natural person? Please define nature and normal for me.

Desmond, I in fact did lobby the government through the BCCSA, about the very thing.So next time dont be so assumptive.

Freedom of expression dont only apply to the extreme and controversial people. Its a two way street, so if the artist has the right to express herself with this exhibit, then surely the minister and every other person in the world, has the right to express their disgust if they feel that way about the same.

Keeping in mind... what one person finds acceptable, others might find offensive, and you cannot force them to not find it thus.

So much so, for those who now want to claim that te exhibit dont portray lesbianism, but celebrates the female body, disregard for the female body etc...grow up! It portrays various sexual poses between females. What other inferrance can be made?

It will stand the gay people of the world in good stead, to not try and force their lifestyle onto the world, but by respecting others' views, and thereby gaining respect and acceptance. Being antagonistic, and reacting hysterically, every time the issue arises, will serve no other purpose than to create more disdain.

By the way I have no problems with gay people, as long as their business stays theirs, and dont infringe on my space

The Praetor

Dear Isabella,

It's not culture, it's art. If one is going to be offended by nudity, why on earth would one attend an art exhibition? It's not a rare find!

Logically then, one wouldn't attend an art exhibition with the expectation of seeing no bare flesh. It follows then that it is the context - the lesbian context - that the Minister finds offensive (the images are hardly hardcore). And how is it possibly damaging to children to be exposed to a clearly loving, caring couple in a tender moment?

Aaah, "Bring me my machine gun!" - that's more like it!

Good grief Minister, I suggest you do not visit Greece, some of their marble statues will send you simply choleric! Then there is India, oh and Japan, Britain, US. Minister, soon there will be no countries you can go to and visit art galleries and experience cultures due to your prejudices.

Although art need not be provocative, it’s the nature of artists to provoke, especially when dealing with issues, controversial or not, that affect society. An exhibition by young black women artists entitled ‘Innovative Women’ defines itself as an exhibition that wants to provoke debate so Lulu Xingwana should have know this when her department contributed R300 000 towards it. She doesn’t have to approve of the lesbian images but her walking out of the exhibition sends out all the wrong messages in a country that has become known for ‘corrective rape’.

Pornography is created to stimulate sexual excitement and some artists will argue that some pornography can be considered art. None of these photographs can be classified as pornographic unless one has been raised in a 21st century environment equivalent of the alleged Victorian practice of covering chair legs on the grounds of modesty.

@ Isabella Van der Westhuizen: You are fully entitled to your Catholic view of things but you only seem to comment when homosexuality is discussed. You seem to be one of those people who blame all the ills of modern society on homosexuality whereas gay issues (as important as they are) are miniscule when compared with the really big issues affecting society, particularly South African society.

paul - where do you see sex acts in the photos? artistic expression, but acts? hmm, dunno

These responses - all of them - demonstrate clearly just how stupid and inappropriate Xingwana's action was ...

Of course 10 people will think and feel in 10 different ways, from the bible-punchers to the bleeding-hearts and everyone in between.

Xingwana's responsibility as a MINISTER is to represent the nation (that includes you, you and yes, you too) by upholding the constitution ... NOT getting her knickers in a knot and stomping out in a huff because of her PERSONAL prejudices!

Again she has failed dismally and in any responsible government she would be fired for incompetence.

@ MM M, I refer you to God's Word, The Bible and the Oxford Dictionary!

Protest
All the comments seen in this colomn are from one side of the arena, those that pleases the editor. Comments that are not music to the ear of the editor or not politically aligned to his taste, are all discarded. No wonder the colomn is one sided. Fortunately most of the reader have notice this. Very dissapointing, 'Peter Bu March 3,2010 09:35am

I wonder whether Minister Lulu also walk out of cabinet meetings when the President arrive?

@Xoli Fortune

Perhaps you should make the effort to actually read the comments. There are several in support of the Minister. The fact that your own was published should prove to you that your observation is false and your "dissapointment' [sic] is misplaced.

All religious nutbags:
This issue is not about homosexuality being thrust in your faces. You just don't have to go to the gallery expose yourself to it, just like i don't have to go to a church and expose myself to irrationality.

The issue is that the minister has to be impartial and guided by the constitution, which she wasn't, and therefore her conduct was improper.

@Isabella Van der Westhuizem on March 3, 2010, 9:24 am

You have some nerve... to say white liberals are using the freedom won on the back of blacks... You remind me of those white Afrikaans people who only like blacks when they have the same view on something radical like this especially these radical Christians that seem to permeate Afrikaans society today. You use it to portray yourself as progressive when you are anything but. Your kind will use any argument possible to validate intolerant views on society.

The minister should have had a clear idea of where she was going and what the exhibition was about - she clearly had none - her actions are non-nation building. Google porn - you clearly need a better idea of what porn is.

En die ergste is dat baie van julle die kat lekker knyp in die donker!

It's predictable, I suppose, that the "moral" brigade will get on their high horses and huff and puff.

What's surprising (though it's not particularly so when one considers her background from other posts) is Isabella van der Westhuizen's use of the word "pornography" to describe this exhibition.

One person's "pornography" is another's "art". That's an incontrovertible fact based on personal preference. That Isabella finds the thought of this exhibition "pornographic" is a sad indictment on her state of mind and predisposition to sexual arousal.

Imagery become pornographic when it titillates (such an unfortunate word in this instance) the viewer to the extent of some form of sexual arousal. Does Isabella really feel she'd get aroused by this? - for that's the measure of pornography.

Is she a closet lesbian?

Did the Minister also? Is she too?

This is disturbing that we have these sorts of women around who I'd have thought would be above this kind of debased behaviour.

Until there is a clear-cut definition of the word "art", we are going to have this kind of vacuous debate which merely measures spectators' tolerances and little else.

Shame on the Minister - for being a woman who was trying to impose her strange standards (or lack of them) on the public who pays her salary.

how does one get to be the minister of arts and culture if you know nothing about it? i recall as a first year university student our art history lecturer told us to just chill the hell out, she's going to show us some images that include nudity. she doesn't want to hear from our parents.
and my heavens, if the minister had ANY idea what kind of very famous art images are out there, that are potentially FAR FAR FAR more racy than these tame ones, she wouldn't have had such a moronic reaction.
as for nation building... ... ... seriously?

When her Serene Excellency "Minister Xingwana was also concerned that there were children present at the event and that children should not be exposed to some of the images on exhibit." she should NOT prematurely leave, but rather remain at the entrance so to protect them from learning what LOVE and BEAUTY really is.
Now they probably think that it is NORMAL to have a lukewarm shower after having forcing HIV-positive women into sex .....

MM M:
The foundational teaching on marriage and sexual issues is found in Genesis chapters 1 and 2.
God instituted and designed marriage between a man and a woman

The complementary structure of the male and female anatomy is obviously designed for the normal husband-wife relationships. Clearly, design in human biology supports heterosexuality and contradicts homosexuality.

The combination of male and female enables man (and the animals) to produce and nurture offspring as commanded in Genesis 1:28 “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.”

God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit. Woman was to be the helper that man needed (Genesis 2:18).

Oh. My. Word.

In one set of posts elsewhere this Isabella woman staunchly supports the Catholic Church and its Priests (who have a centuries-old history of gay sexual practices), but here sees pornography in nude women expressing affection while embracing. She really is very odd. I don't think we should take her seriously.

@Dewahl Visser - with a post like yours quoting Genesis, bless you. I suppose you also believe that the world was made in 144 hours.

Little wonder that people who God created as having sexual preferences which are orientated to "same" rather than "different" need all the protection from the Law they can get.

Think, please for a moment, about the problems a 14-year-old obviously-gay boy has in a classroom of other boys. Taunted. Hit. Mocked. Chided. Singled out. Bullied. The boy's reaction? He wishes in his heart to be different. But nothing he does can change the way God has made him. And so the bullying continues.

What a naughty God. God, you need to read the Bible. You screwed up on with that boy.

God, please chat to Dewahl Visser. He'll point you in the right direction.

Today, a presidential spokesman commenting on Zuma's UK visit said '... what if we had a gay president?' I trust that our gender activists will turn this problem into an opportunity to educate the minister and the public. Prosecute the minister for hate speech; she has violated our constitution. A pity she can't be prosecuted for her lack of artistic sensibility, too.

People who think naked bodies are porn are seriously sick. Porn is intended to degrade women. These photos are intended to educate people, to develop sensitivity towards a group who are persecuted, raped and murdered because of their sexual orientation.

Why the abnormal keep pushing on the Normal. Keep your sex explicit in your bedroom not on our faces (Normal). WELL DONE HONOURABLE MINISTER (Uzalwa ngumfazi). Next time you have your Abnormal exhibition please invite those of your kind.

What's the fuss about? Except an Arts and Culture Minister who hasn't got a clue about anything of course.

I see the moral brigade are out in force. Please people, sexuality and indeed homosexuality have been artistic themes since mankind learnt how to draw.

These pictures are not porn - just becuase someone has no clothes doens't make them a porn star - or do you think Michaelangelo's statue of David is porn too?

Art is expression, you don't have to like it, but you must permit it.

Zanele Muholi's images are wonderful - they depict caring and love while addressing important social issues - its great to know the continent of africa has courageous artists capable of this kind of work - mama africa would be proud.

its the kind of nakedness one expects at an art exhibition actually - one could not go to the louvre or the moma or the met and get by without seeing some naked ladies or men, so they are in good company as far as the nakedness goes

i think it could be an opportunity for the minister to be a great representative by taking a courageous step to breaking down homophobic attitudes and meeting people from the lgbt community - she has the opportunity now to be a part of reducing prejudice in practice - a gift really

On nation building: The strength of a nation is the family. The strength of a family is the marriage. When marriages fail, families and nations fall into chaos. Extra-marital affairs and homosexuality destroy marriages and families. They are against nation-building.

Dewahl,

So, Adam gave up a rib to make Eve. First man and Woman on Earth. They had two sons Cane and Abel. Cane killed Abel. One man alone left on the planet! Now we have billions of people, how?

As for Genesis 1:28 “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth.” What happens if you don't want to? Do, for this instance, I have to go and self flagellate or should I be burned at the stake? I am straight, and I have made singular decision to not have children, because I am far to irresponsible to be allowed to ruin another life. if I chose to live alone and be a mad old cantankerous bastard who kicks kids footballs onto railway lines that is my decision, not "Gods", who ever he might be. If two gay/lesbian people should wish to adopt a child I would be 100% behind supporting them. They would give the child all the love and attention the child needs, in comparison to the sociopathic tendencies I sometimes display.

This is a Life decision.

Sanctimonious prigs like you really get my goat up. Please take your religious clap trap and stick it where the sun doesn't shine, where it belongs.

We are talking about ART here, not RELIGION!

Art, if you are shocked by these touching pictures, why not look at paintings of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, only wearing fig leaves. Are they naked? Are they pornographic?

intresting that the number of comments posted on just this subject are more than on all others , this is clearly immoral and the minister did right in her personal capacity , but maybe not in her official capacity as state servant.homosexuality and lesbianinsm attack the very fibre of society and demean the value and place of n´both women and men alike

Oh really .
Now lesbian art is showing beauty and love.
The chattering classes remain out of touch with reality.
They have decided that they must force the whole world to accept homosexuality as a normal choice. According to these experts it is the normal who are abnormal. Like in McBeth Fair is Foul and Fould is Fair.
Unfortunatley for teh brave new worlders there are resistant types around who do not accept this inversion of nature.
Quite a few of us actually.
Maybe the tolernac epolice need to start running whicth hunst to see who is being intolerant. Why does teh government have to pay this woman ZR 300 000 so she can push an agenda.

I think we should all be forced to paste pages of the bible all over our walls so that we can fend off this evil that is taking over the country yes... no more singing, we don't want people to get horny, sex only for procreation, in silence and in a dark room of course. dry bread and water for everybody, and lots of cold showers, this is the eco-friendly way of life!

I can't but help to think that her visions of a randy dickadent fertilising her were shattered when looking at pictures of beautiful women caught in poses that challenge the fundamentally backward worldview she and her dick of have female sexuality - even in SA. It is her and his type that have reigned in progress on this continent. Btw, can you imagine how disgusting she and dick would look like if caught in a similar pose. Perish the thaught.

Isabella

Whether or not someone else is a homosexual is none of your business. Homosexuality, whether you like it or not, is not a choice. A person is born into their sexuality. They don't go to a movie and decide "Hey, that dude-on-dude action looks kinda fun. Think I'll give it a try". Why? Because your ingrained needs are pre-programmed. Straight guys do not find other guys sexually attractive at all and so on and so forth.

You need to grow up and realise that some people are different to you. As long as there is no harm to a thrid party of course.

You don't have to like homosexuality, heavens many people cringe at the thought automatically! Its a natural reaction to the situation but understand as just that - a reaction to something you personally don't like. And that's just fine. But you have to allow it. You cannot impose your version of the world on anyone but yourself.

You say the Minister has violated the cnstitution? You have violating the Laws of Nature and the nature will judge you (the abnormal). @Ruth Longridge ('what if we had a gay president') Keep on dreaming, this is Africa. Viva Minister

@ Xoli Fortune:
Normal? What's so "normal" about heterosexuality? Heterosexual males raping lesbian women, straight women and children may be the norm here in sunny SA, but how does that entitle you to judge people who treat other women with love and respect as "abnormal"?

Xoli,

Hahahahahaha! You really should get out more. Do you really think homosexuality is purely a human "abnormality"? Your education is serious;y lacking.

@Xoli Fortune - Please, go to school and educate yourself.

For Xoli:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#Selected_images

PS: how is nature going to judge anything or anybody?

Art that's something I can digest. But religion, now that gives humanity an ulcer, remove it, it's a cancer on our planet, morality was around long before men wrote stories and sheeple believed them. The pulse of the planet is changing, its pretty obvious some are not ready and want to wallow in the pits of their man made hell, ministers included.

@ Dewald, well bru, I don't even think that your god can stop crying with laughter at you christians, muslims, catholics and monotheists; ribs, arks, sacrifices, ginat fish, petty jealous and vindictive behaviour by your god, sounds like a Monty Python excerpt.

How did god inveigle his way into this discussion.

But for the record there is an obscure reference - and i mean very obscure reference to the alleged sins of homsexuality in the good book. There are numerous and obvious references to greed, want etc littering the Bible, but these tend to be overlooked by our religious zealots and Ray, the ANC's preferred bigot

all this talk is very strange that jesus was a homophobe, quite the contrary. Especially considering the alleged messiah spent most of his life hanging around with 12 men and couple of women that in modern times might be referred to as 'fag hags'.

To all the homophobes writing here, may I ask you to remember when you morally chose not to be gay? Or did you just naturally find yourselves heterosexual? In the same way that you found yourselves to be black, white, whatever,left-handed or blonde. Think about it. Ministers, on the other hand, can choose to acquaint themselves with the requirements of their portfolio.Now, THAT would be nation building!

LOL Wallace! Don't forget the "one that Jesus loved..."

As for the question of what happens is we get a gay president? aint happening I mean only got a black president 2years ago and how had they had their freedom?

As for the minister she needs to google porn then she can start storming out exhibitions. If she found the exhibition offensive thats her right I suppose as for her porn claims... seriously

Ken,
You say that you are irresponsible? Well it takes a man to acknowledge that he has shortfalls and to take responsibility for that! I admire you for that.
Calling names will not make me change my view and religious believes. Matter of fact you just strengthen my drive to carry God’s word to people like you!
Looking at paintings of Adam and Eve (not Steve) is just a reminder of how easy it is to fall into sin and forget the ways of God!
My prayer at this moment is that you will turn your ways to God before it is too late!

No one is born gay. Homosexuality cannot be equated to race. Please look it up.

I think you are missing the whole point of freedom of expression. The minister exercised her freedom of expression by walking out. What is wrong with the minister expressing herself in that way if you feel the artist was exercising her rights by exhibiting the pictures? It cuts both ways. Just because she is a minister does not mean she loses the same rights that you are all clamouring for.

Remove the blinkers and look around. This self righteousness by the anti-ANC and gay lobby should be exposed for what it is. You are trying to foist on people your beliefs and orientation without giving them the right to refuse to be exposed to such. It's a choice that everyone must be allowed to make on whether they want to view such images or not.

Nation building is not about eroding certain cultural and moral values just so you can be considered to be tolerant. The minister did not order the exhibition stopped or banned, she just made a personal choice which she is entitled to.

The Minister is a public representative going about public business for which she is paid. Her private views she must keep to herself. Being an ANC deployment, she probably knows nothing about art - she knew nothing about Agriculture before, so that would be par for the course.

Shame on the Minister - for being a woman who was trying to impose her strange standards (or lack of them) on the public who pays her salary.

@Dewahl Visser: I respect your right to follow your understanding and interpretation of the word of God in your own life. But what the f$#k does that have to do with any of this? South Africa is a secular state - your beliefs have nothing to do with either the law of the country (in so far as the definition of public indecency goes), other people's personal moral guidelines and beliefs, or the duties and expectations on the behaviour of a civil servant.

Sure Lulu has a right to her own opinions and moral judgements, just like you and me. However she was there in the role of civil servant, not in her person. Clearly she has a poor conception of the separation of personal from official personas, a trait which seems rife in our civil institutions. She could well have found a reason to decline the offer upfront if she would have bothered to find out about the very exhibition in which she agreed to appear (in a public servant role). Once there, however, her personal opinions and moral judgements are irrelevant.

Another day, another embarrassment.

@Fungayi Dzvinyangoma
I have a lot of respect for your contributions even though I tend to disagree with some of them.This is one of those instances. The artists have freedom of expression but the Minister ,her personal views aside has a responsibility to uphold the constitution and respect the Exhibition.The fact that there were children present is something the Organisers need to reflect on. The Minister had an obligation to stay and fulfill her commitments.She holds a public office paid for by the very people who were running the show. She accepted the invitation. She erred big time. Other politicians need to reflect on this and not make the same mistake.

those who claim God wrote the bible, what proof do you have?

ag but you know... here educate yourselves:

seems Sodomy translates to many things one of them corruption...

now... how does Sodomy and moral righteousness apply to these pictures; sure go ahead read whatever God wrote in the way the way that makes you feel comfortable...

If you don't like something that's not going to fit in with your beliefs, ignore and walk away. don't judge others.Everybody is entitled to their own view, doesn't matter how silly it may seem at the time.

@FunGay -
Go and check the following links. Many European countries have Gay/Lesbian Government Ministers, Ambassadors and there's even a Prime Minister. They all got their job because they're bloody GOOD at what they do. And when they don't - they're out. Not because they happen to love somebody of the same gender, but because they did not perform.
Happy reading:

http://goqnotes.com/3296/gay-friendly-companies-listed/

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2008/06/oslo-muslims-in-gay-parade.html

http://www.thelondonpaper.com/thelondonpaper/news/london/sarah-brown-joins-gay-and-lesbian-pride-march-in-london

http://www.thelocal.se/8081/20070802/

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2312511.ece/Christian_Democrats_join_Gay_Pride_parade

http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2312609.ece/Dutch_soldiers_allowed_to_join_gay_parade_in_uniform

@ Triston Jacobson

The authoritative tone i which you speak does not make what you say true. From your comments it is clear that you are some type of religious fundamentalist and derive what you say from some kind of religious text most probably the bible.
Non-traditional families and relationships are as workable and adept at raising children as traditional families and gay people are born the way they are. This is the consensus, which is based on research and statistical analysis, of all professional medical and psychological organisations in the the western world.
The misinformation that is spread by religious, mainly american, organisations that state the contrary use pseudo science to try to support their anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-evolution, anti-round earth convictions. These are not based on evidence. The bible is not evidence and your god is your delusion and has no basis in reality.
So stop spewing falsehoods.

Bravo!

@Triston Jacobsohn
So how was Castor Semenya born?

Did God get this one wrong?

All god's children.

Cheers

@Donald Mathray -

Homosexuality exists amongst ALL animals - including humans.
Castor Semenya was born as one of the many, MANY variations.
You should try and read about it before judging.

I suggest you google for:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=professor+transexuality+Vrije+Universiteit+Amsterdam&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

http://www.transactiveonline.org/documents/health/atypical_brain_development_2009.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu3.htm

http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/1994/index.htm

http://bruno.penandscale.com/2009/05/genetic-link-to-transexuality.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Gooren

http://www.pfc.org.uk/node/276

The minister was right to take a moral stand. Nowhere in her job description does it say she must put with children being exposed to indecent images. Nowhere in her job decsription does it say she surrenders her freedom of expression to artists or whoever else's.

It's interesting how most of you want to take the moral high ground failing to realise the double standards in your comments. I don't think the minister mentioned anything about God or religion. The minister did not say anything about the sexual orientation of the images except that she found them immoral and offensive. The real homophobs are those who thought the minister's move was homophobic. It could have been pictures of people of the opposite sex and I am sure she would have walked out because of the explicit nature of the images and not because they were same sex.

Combrinck denied that the minister objected to the fact that the women were lesbians. "I don't think it's based on sexual orientation. It's more to do with the fact they're not wearing clothes and engaging in what looks like sexual acts. The minister stands by what she did."

It seems those attacking the minister willfully ignored the above statement. Emily Craven of the Joint Working Group is abusing the cause of gay people in attacking the minister.

Thokozani Qwabe, a lesbian, was murdered 3 years ago. Her naked body had many head wounds, her clothes were found metres away from her dead body. She was raped and killed for being openly gay in her residential community. The men who raped and murdered her - tearing her vagina apart so badly that the official description of it makes one gag - claimed that it was their culture and their right to do so because as men they had a job to correct a lesbian for going against nature.

Rest in peace, Thokozani.

Im going to have to disagree in the strongest terms, that homosexuality exists amongst all animals.
Personally I havent witnessed any, and untill the day I do, this will remain a wild fantasy thought up by people who are trying to justify, themselves.


The Praetor

Oh, well, now Paul, just because you haven't seen it, well, then that must be the truth.

Want a list of species who exhibit homosexual behaviour?

National Geographic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html

Clearly, you haven't been hanging around giraffe because as you would know if you did, male on male sex is fairly common. One article suggests 9 out of 10 times.


Or Medical News?
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx

Don't believe that? Try Wikipedia, that readily-knocked site of first resort:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

"Birds do it. Bees do it. Even educated fleas do it."

I believe it is up to the parents to decide what their children see. In Finland, for instance, everyone can choose to sauna altogether in the all together or not. Finns have not turned into a nation of sex mad rapists, but responsible people who honour each other. Certianly my time there, having sauna with everyone, has made me relaxed around nudeity.

Re the Bible - read it thoroughly and find out just what a woman abusing book it is, as well as strongly punting ethnic cleansings. Not a bedtime story for a small child at all. It reflects man's ongoing justification for his inhumanity to his fellow beings!

Under Apartheid, Resistance Art was considered immoral, offensive and against nation building........

@P. Ressiv
You did not read my comments.I am not against homosexuality. I just thought that the Minister acted incorrectly by walking out. This is art- appreciated by some condenmed by others.

Cheers

Judith Taylor South Africa is not Finland and Lulu Xingwana is not Finnish. If everything was free for all then why are movies rated? Why do night clubs have age restrictions as some parents want to take their children clubbing? Why stop there, scrap age restrictions for buying beer and cancer sticks?

Nation building is about boundaries as much as it is about freedom of expression, association and all the other freedoms.

@FunGay - If that were (not was!) the case, why is nobody in the 'leadership' setting example?
They enrich themselves by buying votes, robbing the poor (and the rich, by the way), ignore the law of the country.
The black Hoxa and Ceausescu.

These beautiful photos of two women have nothing to do with sex - in case you haven't figured that out.
And if you want to censure PHOTOS, then regulate that. But please, take somebody who KNOWS about art.

P. Ressiv I think you have lost the plot completely. Can you tell us which law of the country she supposedly ignored?

You went to the exhibition and I didn't so I will trust the minister's judgement on this one.

It's amazing how the same people attacking the minister here are the same who were attacking Zuma for practicing his culture. Zuma chooses to express himself in the way he knows best as per his culture and he is branded immoral. The minister makes a moral call, she is branded intolerant. Can you see where we are going?

This woman is not only a minister, she is a mother and a human being with a conscience. I think she should have gone further and stop this exhibition for exposing children to such corrupt material.

YES, I can see where this is going: to hell.
I have never heard so much stupidity.

Of course those who 'attacked' Zuma, are also 'attacking' a person who finds it perfectly normal that the he has sex against the will of a HIV-positive lesbian because it is his 'culture'!
Rape is not a 'culture'...

Here are the photos:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/02/south-african-minister-lesbian-exhibition

And don't worry - lesbianism is not contagious ....

@Fungayi Dzvinyangoma - My apologies. I thought RAPE was illegal, even in SA. And that stealing votes was illegal, even in Bob's Zimbabwe.

Michaelangelo's "David" must be pornographic too. He's naked. And Botticelli's "Venus". And all of Rubens' rather fleshy women. Et cetera, et cetera...

Of course nudity isn't pornographic when it's art.

But uneducated people can't tell the difference. That's only because they're uneducated uncouth simpletons.

Even if they pull the fat naked wages and perks of a Zuma cabinet minister.

I would like the minister to look at this little PSA produced in 2008.
http://www.beatit.co.za/flash/popup.php?videourl=http://www.youtube.com/v/5z-grpZOwRU

Its a protest and call for action against hate crimes, esepcially the murder of lesbians. The ministers utterences amount to incitement to hate crimes. She is a role model and in a position to influence people who do not know better. She owes South Arica an appology.

“This is the 21st century.” What kind of illogical logic makes this statement a justification for any moral or ethical judgment?
And let me state this again: Homosexuality is of course a perfectly natural and acceptable phenomenon, but it is not the NORM, and therefore cannot be described as NORMAL.
Issabella I love you, but you are clearly wasting your time casting your pearls of wisdom before this community of commenters. I’m glad you stopped bothering to try and explain what you are getting at.
Perhaps if you lowered the intellectual level of your writing it would be more intelligible to the level of their intellect. You have been accused and pilloried here for all sorts of thing that you did not actually opine.

Fungayi Dzvinyangoma, you are wasting your time arguing rationally with people who are clearly ignorant.

Like you said, Nowhere does the minister say she is against lesbians.

She walked out because of the sexual nature of the images.

But the ignorant are just ignoring that and blabbering on about their fabricated and irrelvant aspects.

Sadly we are moving again into a society that do not tolerate openmindedness, that are extremely male orientated and very narrow in it's definitions of what is right and accepted. Gone are the days of Mandela and Mbeki when we saw a refreshing array of public representatives. Surely this minister gets briefed on what to expect at a function like this and if she cannot identify, why didn't she stayed away? It would be great to hear the opinion of somebody as respected (and religious) as Tutu on this.

Ten million comments and hardly any of them address a particular issue that is important here.

The Hon. Ms. Xingwana is perfectly entitled to her views. She is fully entitled to see pornography in a photograph, if it so pleases her. She is fully entitled to enquire about the welfare of children present in the vicinity (although her concern for the children present did not appear to extend to any interference with their right to be in attendance, for which one may be thankful or otherwise, depending on one's view). She is, further, fully entitled to be set against homosexuality; for while the Constitution guarantees homosexual people the freedom to engage in consensual activities of a sexual nature with others of a similar persuasion, there is nothing that says that an individual cannot themselves find it offensive. Our thoughts are not legislated.

However, what the Hon. Minister should not be allowed to do is encourage wastefulness nor be ill-prepared and uneducated. Her department sanctioned this exhibition and paid a large sum of money towards it, even whilst knowing (or purporting to know) of the background of at least some of the artists. Additionally, there is absolutely no excuse for attending the opening of an exhibition without having had at least a cursory glance of the catalogue of the pieces nor a skim of the biographies of the artists.

These two simple, five-minute chores (for such could have been prepared in a few minutes by one of her plethora of assistants and she could have perused it even in the brief chauffeured journey to the venue) would have saved the Minister from this unfortunate situation. She could then have politely had her assistant telephone in advance to advise of her sudden inability to attend and all would have been well.

But no, instead we are faced with a walk-out and a pointless discussion coloured with the usual racism, religious intolerance and homophobia which far exceeds the commentary of the Minister and further entrenches inflammatory sexism, racism, homophobia and religious intolerance as the creepy cornerstone of the nation.

Eudy Simelane, a Banyana Banyana player, was found murdered, her body dumped in a creek in Kwa Thema in April 2008. Gang raped, stabbed 25 times in the face. An outspoken human rights campaigner and a lesbian.

Triangle, a NGO, released figures stating that they deal with 10 corrective rapes (men who rape lesbians to teach them the views that Isabella and Rob and Fungayi hold and condone) in CT alone.

Complicity is complicity. Proxies do the raping and murdering of lesbians while the rest of those who call it unnatural look on. But hatred is still the same.

Isabella, you see pornography where other people see beauty, love and tenderness. Sad.

Dewahl, look at the "rules" in the early part of your bible and see how many (!) of them would be considered good behaviour, or even possible, today.

Isabella, the constitution of South Africa recognises homosexuality to be as normal or abnormal as hetrosexuality.

Your religion's own constitution (The bible) might state otherwise, although this is debateable at this moment in history as your religion deals with this very issue.

But please, respect the constitution of your country, the same constitution that allows your religion to practice in this country. Please do not refer to homosexual people as abnormal - that might be seen as hate speech, and for me, is just disrespectful. Try actually reading your country's constitution, internalising and working through it, in the same way you do with the bible. Try to learn what it is trying to teach...

That people might have be different to you, but they still deserve respect and love.
And then read your bible and remember it is not your place to judge people who are different to you.

Paul C - perhaps the defensiveness of homosexual South Africans comes from the reality they live in. The constitution might uphold their rights, but until lesbian women are not raped because of their sexual orientation and gay men are not beaten up because of their sexual orientation, or mocked for being "hysterical" when that is based on a crude stereotype, then their defensiveness is understandable.

The exhibition that this very article is about might actually be directed at you, to try and see a different side to homosexuality. Not the stereotyped side, but of why it actually exists - because it gives people who are homosexual the love, care & respect they seek, that they deserve and that our constitution states they have a right too.

Do it! Go and see the exhibition! See what it makes you think. If it gives you a new perspective, then it is a very good exhibition. Do it!

Dear me Kerry,
I don't believe that I actually expressed any views on the subject at all, other than to criticize the intellect of the commenters in general.
And thank you, your assumed generalisation has just proved my point.

Kerry: "...while the rest of those who call it unnatural look on."

Sorry, I have more to add. I in fact specifically stated that Homosexuality is both Natural and Acceptable.

I wonder if there is such a word as Hetrophobia, if not, there certainly should be. It seems to me there is quite a bit of it flying around on these posts.

Welcome to all the usual homophobes - esp Isabella (who still can't spell her own surname correctly), who only seems to post on gay issues. Isabella, is there something you want to share?

The minister was wrong. Somebody in her position should not make haste moral judgements - she dealt with this insensitively and non-diplomatically.

I think she should be fired for her obvious intolerance towards the gay community.

My dear beloved cc.
I must apologize for my typing. You know back in Girls High in 1985 typing was only offered to the G class gilrs. Those who were going to have to work as secretaries.
I did add maths instead. So sorry about that.
The gay community now want to put pictures of gay sex on public display with public funds and we must tolerate that.
Accusing me of being gay is another old chestnut.
If you oppose us you are either a homophobe of some-one stuck in the closet who hates herself.
A bit like the McCarthy withc hunts in the 1950's. If you do not tetstify about your communist friends it means you are a communist. I post on many issues but I am particularly tired of the misplaced secularist triumphalism that this news paper seems to propagate. Suddenly some-one who does not want to see pictures of naked people having sex is a homophobe. She is not tolerant.
Sounds like a wonderfully tolerant view to me.

I would feel uncomfortable viewing those pictures in the presence of elders or my kids. This is where at times our cultures and upbringing differ. This has nothing to do with her record as a minister but has to do with perception of what is comfortable for her. Please stop imposing your cultures, quaks, moral standards and hobbies on others. If you were to run a survey amongst African, you would find a great number would be unconfortable with those pictures in a public place. It does not mean however that they are homophobic. The minister should have done some research on the theme of the exhibitions before showing up.

To all the gay gangsters persisting with the misdirected attacks on the minister. If she was homophobic would she have attended the exhibition in the first place knowing that Zanele Muholi is a lesbian? Stop trying to draw your own conclusions on the matter. The minister has stated her reasons clearly but the gay gangsters want a target in authority to attack and they are using her as a scapegoat.

The exhibition was not about lesbians but about young black female artists and it seems the usual suspects who do not see anything good in ANC ministers have hijacked this episode for their own ends.

Isabella, do yourself a favour and look at the pictures. These are not pictures of people having sex. I seriously doubt it whether there would have been such a huge hoo-ha from Lulu if these were straight people hugging each other.

Secondly morality is something very personal - what is moral for me isn't moral for you. Dear Lulu used a public platform to air her own personal judgements and that is wrong. The constitution allows for freedom of expression and as public servant she has to first and foremost abide by the constitution. She could have treated this issue with more tact.

"misplaced secularist triumphalism" - the MG is a newspaper and not a 'traktaatjie'.

Rob, don't make assumptions about my sexuality just because I defend the right of lesbians to live and make art as they like in this country.

And you should never make assumptions about intelligence from comments added to an online community.

OK. Let’s have some fun here:
Welcome to all the usual hetrophobes – (names withheld)
(Surely Isabella (who still can't spell her own surname correctly) is quite entitled to spell her name as she sees fit. Why are you so intolerant?)
who only seem to post on gay issues.
Isabella, is there (I would be so delighted to discover that there is) something you want to share?

The minister was wrong (to behave with such bad manners). Somebody in her position should not make haste (TYPING!!!) moral judgements - she dealt with this insensitively and non-diplomatically (undiplomatically – one word).

I think she should be fired for her obvious intolerance towards the gay community. (So she walks out of an exhibition displaying people in obvious sexual poses. By what possible stretch of the imagination does that make her “obviously intolerant” towards the gay community? You say you “seriously doubt,” but you are just ASSUMING she would not have reacted similarly if the pictures were of heterosexuals in similar poses?)
CC, my wish for you is that you should stub your toe against a brick. Not too badly, just enough to make you stumble so that that chip on your shoulder falls off.

Nice response Rob! And thanks for correcting my crappy grammar and spelling - you are a very efficient spell checker!

Chip on my shoulder? Maybe, but I'm not convinced of dearest Lulu's moral high road. Black lesbians are having a pretty tough time in SA with many men believing they can be raped until become straight - and if that doesn't work, beat them while you rape them. You don't think that this type of in-your-face display of the tender side of lesbianism is trying to communicate some sort of message?

And to then leave in a huff saying it is against 'nation-building'. Come on...

Moral ....
This Minister (woman, mother) obviously has no moral problems to work under a President (no pun intended) who has UNSAFE SEX with an HIV-positive woman.
A lesbian - so do you really think this was a VOLUNTARY act??

Being forced into sex is considered RAPE.
The whole world knows about this, and of course most children have read about this embarrassing case.
And yet, these photos, which show nothing but love, have suddenly become ".... immoral, offensive and going against nation-building."
Oh puhleaze ................

Rob, you might want to read Anthea Buys's article in the Thought Leader section. She is much more eloquent than I am and makes the point I allude to very effectively.

The indignant comments from the religious puritans and their associated propagandist tone consistently illustrate the connection between monotheism and worship of self. Monotheism often, and there is good reason to say necessarily, sinks to the level of promoting various tribalisms to the status of a universal validity and hence superiority. The Nats, the Nazis, now the Americans and too many others have done it too.
When are the monotheists going to see the light?
Isabella, Paul, Dewahl, et al. You do not under any circumstances hold the monopoly on the definitions of 'normality' and 'nature'. Likewise, you do not hold the monopoly on morality. Incidentally, the other major monotheistic religions also claim to be 'the way of the world' and believe they hold the monopoly on the 'right way'. What's your take on them? LIVE and let LIVE please. SA is a multi-cultural society and as long as no-one threatens the basic structure of the social order (not the communities) they should not be discriminated against or judged. You have your beliefs and opinions and I have mine. If you see and consider something 'unnatural', look the other way, it's not threatening your religion or your persona. Somebody else will disagree and it will not be 'unnatural' to them. It's that simple
LIVE and let LIVE.

On the minister, I think she was wrong. She should have displayed more decorum and professionalism in function as a public official. She is, of course, entitled to her opinion and if she lambasted everyone from the artist to the media and everyone in between publicly after the exhibition, it would not have been incorrect and could openly justify her comments as an individual.

I have seen the photos and I agree that you see more 'smut' on lingerie catalogs, the nearest beach and daily on TV. To called that pornographic is a gross exaggeration but, hey, that's only my opinion.

All you posters who are going on about raped lesbians are simply drumming up support for your own agenda. Women get raped by the bucketload in SA every day. They get quite brutally assaulted all the time by their partners. I know because I have worked in a number of inner city hospitals in my time. The whole situation is shocking. However you turn it into a gay rights issue.
You are politically exploiting suffering by trying to pretend that it is just lesbians who suffer this abuse.
We are now told that to describe homosexuality as abnormal is wrong and against the constitution. If the constitution suddenly defines a triangle as having four sides that is also fine. It does not change the fact that a triangle has three sides. Similalry trying to define homosexuality as normal and equivalent of heterosexual marriage is equally as futile.

I assume, Isabella, you speak to me as one of these who is a "poster" [sic]. Then address me directly.

And let me tell you this: corrective rape of a lesbian is a horrific crime. The fact that you cannot even speak out against that, but dismiss it as just another rape happening by the "bucketload" tells me your hatred of homosexual women is so strong that you cannot even see when a crime has been committed. You should not be allowed to comment on this website because your remarks are homophobic. However, the M&G online editor seems to think it is acceptable to tolerate your comments and justifications.

Corrective rape of lesbian women is a violation of decency and human rights. All humans, straight and gay.

I'd like to change the tack of this debate back to Minister Xingwana. While she may be entitled to her PRIVATE opinion in this situation she was appearing as a Minister - a senior government leader and as such is actually obligated to express Government position - which is clearly not what happened here.

While unfortunately it is hearsay I have heard that Arts & Culture officials who were at the function and/or who have the misfortune of working for her are at their wits end at her bigotry, discrimination against certain forms of art and certain groups of artists as well as her lack of actual knowledge of all forms of Art. This incident is apparently not isolated, merely public, and is just the tip of an iceberg that is having a very negative impact on Art and Culture in South Africa.

Where for example is the money promised for the Grahamstown Art Festival during the 2010 FWC??? The mess that Robben Island has degenerated into because the entire organisation was rudderless for several months when the entire board quit (in disgust), together with the irregular suspensions of the CEO by the minster herself (twice overturned and ruled "malicious" and "grossly unfair" by the CCMA and costing the taxpayer several million Rands) can also apparently be laid squarely at Minister Xingwana's doorstep...these are two HUGE South African cultural icons and there are apparently many more smaller ones that are suffering. (Fortunately she had to apologise and backtrack on the renaming of Pretoria/Tswane debacle or that could also be added to the list)

Then there is still the mess she seemingly left behind at the Land Bank...If our president is serious about firing non-performing Ministers this Minister should be near the top of the list- She is a disgrace to our country and to the ANC.

CC. I do believe that you have even missed the point of my correcting your English. So I’ll spell it out for you: That was just a reaction to your own unnecessary sarcastic criticism of Isabella’s spelling of her own name.
For the rest, well you are all dwelling on the obvious. Rape in all forms is of course a heinous crime. But you are all hanging onto a very thin and tenuous thread by which you are trying to connect the Minister’s bad mannered behaviour to a particular form of rape, and you don’t seem to care about any other type of rape.

Just give up Isabella. Kerry et al are so caught up in their hetrophobic world that they will never be aboe to see the whole picture.

Kerry my darling.,
I realize that no-one really understands suffering like you do , but don't you feel you are being highly selective. All rape is terrible. If you are a lesbian who gets raped that is for you somehow worse than if you are a normal woman.A gay life is worth more than a straight one now.
Do you not feel that the sexual revolution and the spread of pornogrpahy in general (ETV Hustler and now your beloved exhibition) has helped to objectify women. Now we all know that women are sexually available all the time just begging for it. If you don't believe me watch E TV on a Friday night. Just SMS the word Porn, we are waiting for your call. In what way is being raped and murdered as a lesbian worse than being raped and murdered as a normal person?
Please enlighten me.

@Isabella: you wrote "If you are a lesbian who gets raped that is for you somehow worse than if you are a normal woman"

Ooo, Isabella! Normal women? Does that make gay women 'abnormal'? You clearly seem to think so!

The point is that we are all entitled to the same rights - but while there are people like you who see gay people as freaks and (to use your concept) ABNORMAL, the gay community will have to stand up for themselves and show you how normal and natural homosexuality is.

You are also confusing two issues here - one about gay rights, and one about pornography.

CC
Oh well! Isabella tried one more time, so I will too.
She is perfectly correct in her choice of words.
Normal means conforming to the norm. Now homosexuality cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered to be the norm.
It is of course perfectly natural and obviously completely acceptable. But it is certainly not the norm and cannot therefore be described as normal.

So, Rob, white people in SA are abnormal as they are not the norm?

I wish I could put one of those little emotikoms in here with rolling eyes. I knew I was wasting my time when I typed that last response.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4875930.stm reminds us of the 'good old days'

Rob, I'm glad you are so blase about this issue. Some people cannot be so casual about their rights.

Norm/normal are both laden with emotion. Describing somebody as abnormal should best be avoided.

:-)

When my grandmother was living she would say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=ikqhHvG0qTg&feature=related

CC you lot are what that great Englishman Orwell was on about in 1984.
You might not be as grey and dark as the future he described but he was spot on about the use of English. If you control words you control minds. So what is really aberrant behaviour, no matter how enjoyable for the people who partake in it, has now by legal fiat been declared normal. You lot like dear Kerry are now threatening all sorts of dire consequences for me using so called hate speech. How tolerant.
I will quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church to clarify my position.
Homosexuality is an ineherently disordered inclination and all homosexual acts are inherently disordered and a sin.

"Homosexuality is an in(e)herently disordered inclination and all homosexual acts are inherently disordered and a sin."
Well, my dear Isabella, I guess that must be the reason why such a large number of child molesters can be found amongst the catholic priests - the very same who take a vow of celibacy at their ordination and as such are called to refrain from all (ALL!!) sexual activity.
In addition, the official position of the hypocritical Catholic Church, while calling for the 'respect' of homosexuals, condemns as sinful any active homosexual lifestyle. Nevertheless several studies suggest that there are higher than average numbers of homosexual men (active and non-active) within the Catholic priesthood and higher orders.

http://www.aztlan.net/boyle2.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8542285.stm

Happy reading!

The Catholic Church is designed for Saints and Sinners. For respectable people the Anglican church is good enough.
So it comes as no surprise that we have sinners in the Church.
As a matter of fact we are all sinners.
What you want the Church to do is say that homosexuality is not a sin.
Now that we will not do.

@Isabella -
"Now that WE will not do".
WE?
WOW - are you allowed to speak on behalf of the church?
"The Catholic Church is designed for Saints and Sinners."
Maybe. But you seem to forget the Nazis (heavily supported by the pope and Catholic church in general throughout the war), child-molesters (the thousands of victims about to start legal procedures against the church is only the top of the iceberg) and other criminals.
Gee, you have a very selective memory my dear .........