/ 14 August 2009

Judge for yourself

Sello Alcock's report of his interview with Western Cape Judge President John Hlophe in last week's <i>M&G</i> has stirred up a hornet's nest.

Sello Alcock’s report of his interview with Western Cape Judge President John Hlophe in last week’s Mail & Guardian has stirred up a hornet’s nest. Here, Alcock gives his side of the story

So somehow, miraculously, I found myself in the thick of a conversation over dinner with Western Cape Judge President Judge John Hlophe.

Hlophe’s letter to IFP leader Mangosuthu Buthelezi suggests that I eavesdropped on a private function and then ran off to my neoconservative newspaper to give it something bad to write about him.

How did I really get to that table at Marco’s African Restaurant in Cape Town last Wednesday evening?

On August 4 I met a friend of Hlophe’s named Kojo Parris, who said he had known the judge president for 25 years.

When I said I would love to interview him, Parris told me he could arrange a meeting. Then and there, he phoned Hlophe and set one up.

Urging me to simply book a flight to Cape Town, Parris asked: ”How much does a flight cost? See it as an investment.” He even suggested I use my own money and surprise the paper.

The next morning, at 8.30am, packed and booked on a 12pm flight, I got an email from Parris, which simply read: ”Marco’s African Restaurant, 8pm.”

After arriving in Cape Town I received a call from our photographer, wanting details of the meeting. I realised that I had not warned Parris that a photographer would be present, and called him.

He seemed hesitant, so I asked if I should cancel the photographer. ”Stand him down for now,” he said, adding that we could, perhaps, have the snapper sitting elsewhere in the restaurant on standby.

As the interview was the first prize for me, I obliged. My aim was to be as accommodating as possible, to make Hlophe comfortable.

For this reason I also decided not to take notes during the interview, but rather to transcribe the conversation immediately after it took place. I now think that was a mistake. It gave Hlophe the opportunity to sow doubt about my account, but there is no doubt in my mind at all about what I heard.

At about 8.30pm I entered Marco’s Restaurant and asked the hostess if she knew where the Hlophe party was sitting. She pointed them out.

I greeted Hlophe and explained that I was joining them as per the arrangement with Parris, who was not there.

Hlophe knew I was a Mail & Guardian reporter, as I had been introduced to him as such during the Judicial Service Commission (JSC) hearings in Johannesburg.

He shook my hand and called me by my name, saying that Parris would come later. I assumed that he was expecting me and it was all systems go.

He promptly introduced me to a gentleman I later found out was Jabulani Ntshangase, and two women.

I jumped straight in, firing questions at Hlophe and he answered in earnest.

I started by asking him how he thought he had fared at his public hearings and how he would rate his chances with the JSC.

I then quizzed him about the cloud left hanging over his and Judge Bess Nkabinde’s heads because of their conflicting evidence before the JSC.

Later Parris arrived with two women friends and we moved tables to accommodate the party. I picked up the exchange, which was conversational in tone, mainly because I wanted to make Hlophe feel comfortable.

In his letter to Buthelezi, Hlophe denies referring to King Goodwill Zwelithini and Buthelezi during our conversation.

The context was as follows: Ntshangase said that the Justice for Hlophe Alliance believed Hlophe should become chief justice immediately. Hlophe then broke in to say: ”[Otherwise] I may get killed; I’m not bullet-proof,” adding that as the pretender to the Zulu throne, Zwelithini had been exiled to protect him from the IFP leader.

I said I had heard that Zwelithini was exiled to the former Transvaal, but Hlophe corrected me, saying his refuge was St Helena Bay, and remarking: ”Oh, you know the story.”

Critically, Hlophe has also denied telling me he would never shake Chief Justice Pius Langa’s hand, as he would be shaking the hand of a white man. His explanation is that he was referring to a white judge with whom he previously clashed, Justice Wilfred Thring, whose hand Langa asked him to shake as a gesture of reconciliation.

I had asked him whether he should not have conceded to the JSC that he might have erred in claiming that Langa and his deputy, Dikgang Moseneke, had conspired against him.

I specifically remember him saying that he had gladly shaken Judge Chris Jafta’s hand because he had ”told the truth” to the JSC.

He defiantly added that he had refused to shake Langa’s hand, adding: ”I refuse to shake a white man’s hand.”

There was no mention of Judge Thring at this point in the conversation. Earlier, Ntshangase merely said the Thring matter and other earlier controversies surrounding Hlophe had been settled by the JSC.

Eavesdropping? Lies? You be the judge.

Also read Hlophe does damage control